I thought I would start a debate on this topic considering that this was a major cause for arguments and people being banned on ISP.

The question is, to what extent should criticism of any religion be tolerated. If I am asking the wrong question, then people feel free to state your own.

The way I see it is simple: as long as you do not use any profanities towards other members then there should be no offence. For me, religious belief is a personal view. Just like some people really love a football club, and indeed many people regard their football club more highly than the religion they were born into. So if you way Perspolis horrible, you might upset perspolis fans and if you say Islam is horrible you might upset some devout moslems. But you shouldn't get a ban for such a thing. This is what happened on ISP far too often.

I would like to hear what others think about this.

Well, I think freedom of speech is always important. But I also think since religion is sucha sensitive issue for many people and there are many moslems out there, I think people can be more gentle when talking about it.

Everybody should be able to express their opinions. Even if they hate religion, they should be able to say they do. But I mean at the same time, it's very unnecessary to talk about it in a way to provoke unpleasentness and fights.

As long as everybody (from both sides) respect eachother and eachother's believes (even if they don't agree with them), it's all good.

I for one got bored of ISP because I really felt alot underage kids (!!!!) hang out there, with no sense of 'real world'. I'm hoping here we could discuss all kind of things without any of the issues we had there.

Sly jan,
I agree to a certain extent with your sentiment on religion, but if are not careful, this place will become another intolerant ISP. I want to hear other people's opinion too and I am happy to submit to the will of the majority, but as I said before, as long as there is no profanities spouted against people and religion I am fine with any other criticism, no matter how harsh it maybe.
If someone is very sensitive and get offended for hearing, for example, that Mohammad was a paedophile then they should either avoid the discussion or argue in a civilised manner why he wasn't. This is no reason to ban someone.

I think people just will get offended very soon, altough I agree with Behrooz bc I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing and even attacking a religion, its too learn for yourself if your religion is the right one for you. But I think this is a very delicate subject and we need to discuss it well before we start anything religion based.

Well, I personally think we have to take some lessons on this issue from the Western societies most of us live in. As much as I don't want anything to limit my freedom of expression, we all have to appreciate that freedom of expression can not be used as a tool to alienate people or undermined any of their freedoms.

As an example, freedom of expression as granted by the Canadian Charter Of Rights And Freedoms (whose equivalent exists in almost all Western societies) not only prevents one from making racist remarks by itself, but it allows them to do so. So, it must be read in conjunction with the section that bans discrimination against people of any color, ethnic origin, religion, etc.

On that note, while we can all individually make the comment that we agree or disagree with an ideaology, allowing ourselves to call it stupid or it's followers stupid is obviously not in anyone's best interest. A person can not rightly be offended by the fact that someone else does not agree with their ideology or finds certain "holes in it", but they have every right to be offended by the "perspective" that dismisses their ideology or perspective as being stupid.

Although it may seem that there's a fine line there, having respect for other people and their opinions (which is what all of us ask for) makes that fine line appear as a big no-crossing point. Again, I think our goal should be to allow all perspectives and to do our utmost to allow freedom of expression without disresepecting one another.

And one last note, this is going to be a dynamic situation IMHO and expecting ourselves to get it perfect from the start may be counter-productive. We all have to have the flexibility to deal with new situations and ajust the rules, as necessary to maximize freedom of expression without alienating people and their views.

I agree with Behrou on this thing.
We have been pretty good at respecting one another. Meaning you rarely see people say to the other side you are stupid, or you are Olagh, and if they do, they understand that there is a ban of some sort is coming.
However, we need to improve on respecting a group of people however small or large the same as individuals. For example the there are people who are very courteous with individuals, but then call all Moslems backward or retard. If they realize that by saying such a thing they are insulting a group of people including certain individuals who you are talking to on the board, then it should be easy to hold off on the insults.
However, not insulting doesn't mean that you can not criticize. You are free to discuss, criticize and any religion, or for that matter any individual as long as you keep your cool. ;)

I also agree with Behrou. Let's wait for this place to develop and then we see.

Oh boy, the age old subject of religion.

I am a firm believer of freedom of expression. In this day and age, I am convinced in my own mind that everything presented by “men of god” regardless of what religion they represent is nothing but man-made stuff to control and exploit masses. Personally, I do not believe any of the wildly practiced religions are from god, but that’s me. I used to argue and question people particularly on Islam (for obvious reasons) to provide the logic behind practices and teachings of Islam.

For me personally, the character and actions of Mohammad is extremely questionable. I do not and can not accept “God” would chose a man to deliver his final timeless message to humanity by a person that seems like a full blown womanizer and/or a pedophile, a ruthless leader that would go to any length to meet his objectives regardless of means could possibly be sent by the creator.:scratchchin:

This subject is very sensitive and may never be resolved one way or another, at least not for many generations to come.:help:

Having said that, there should absolutely be continues discussions regarding the message and the messenger. This is a very long process, no one will change their ways overnight but if one can logically raise the awareness in one’s mind to at least question things….then I think a lot of good will come out of it.

One thing we should (specially us Iranians) be extremely mindful about is how to deliver that message. I have come to conclusion that we have a large segment of our population that are not really reformable. We all know a few relatives (at least I do) that would visit Mecca every chance they’ll get, would spend money to “feed” their neighbors (which do not need that food anyways) every year but will not spend a fucking Reyal to help educate a poor student, contribute to build schools or other things that would benefit his community/country. Why, because he firmly believes going to Mecca and feeding others will please the god more!!! :hanged2:

Anyway, I have learned trying to educate or question some individuals actions and priorities will get them alienated. And my friends, I think that is one of the biggest contributors to IR longevity. :piss:

In conclusion, educate, question, discuss, verify, present facts but do not alienate people by calling Islam/Moslems names, etc. :praying:

I also agree with Behrou.

The thing is that from my experience, both sides have a very very good way to use the rules to spread their propaganda. If you say you will ban everyone who says something against the religion, then some of the fanatics will fastly start with their propaganda posts...... and if you say we have a total freedom of speech, the other side will use it to spread their own agendas.

As Behrou says, the line in between is very thin and it needs a lot of carefulness and most important of all OBJECTIVITY for the moderators to make their decisions correctly.

Artaville jan, now by your post I have to say you are being very very subjective here. You are saying your relatives go to Mecca and buy food for the poor but they don't give the money to the poor students or use it to build schools. and that you think is bad. (I'm not saying you're wrong here).

You also advise to "educate, question.......and then don't alienate people" (again, I'm not saying you're wrong here either).

But what makes you think the die hard muslim thinks he/she needs education from me and you?? Maybe they think we are the ones who need the education from them. Your relative might even wanna build a toilet with his money for all we care. But maybe he thinks he's the one doing the right thing even if he doesn't know any better.

Now you and I might not agree with them about the things they do or think but IMO, to be able to "moderate a site" or make rules, you need to be much much more objective in your thoughts than that.

But if what you said was just your thoughts and had nothing to do with the rules of the site and moderating it, then that's a whole another thing.

Artaville jan, now by your post I have to say you are being very very subjective here....but if what you said was just your thoughts and had nothing to do with the rules of the site and moderating it, then that's a whole another thing.

Sly jan, yes, those are my personal thoughts/opinions and I think I made that very clear.

As for people feeding their neighbors (I did not say poor people, since overwhelming majority of people that are fed, don't need it in the first place) during Ashora, again IMHO that money can be better spend. But again that's my opinion and I have shared that thought with my relatives that annually contribute to those events. They can burn their money during 4-shanbeh sorri for all I care.

As for the rules (it will be very simple) of forum and moderation are concerned, my likes/dislikes do not matter.

I look forward to see a lot interesting, educational and mutually respectful discussions in the future.

By the way, welcome aboard.

I think we should be able to talk about anything we want as Behrouz said but the key should be good moderating, this is something that was missing from ISP.

we are all adults and friends and if I cross a line, I like my friends to tell me in a friendly manner and ask me to edit my post , instead of just baning me !!

artavile jan oh I see. Then there are no misunderstandings.
Thanks man. :)

Shahin jan, that's a good thought as well.

Good discussions so far guys and girl - since we have our first female member ;)

Artie jaan, it would be great if you could paste the simple rules you posted in the other thread here as well, becasue I think that at the end of the day (and by the looks of it) all of us agree with mutual respect and that's what your emphasis was on with those 2 very simple to follow rules.

At the end of the day, regardless of whether we follow Zoroastrianism or not, Good Words, Good Thoughts and Good deeds are a great policy for everyone and IMHO (personal opinion) that simple phrase forms a great religion (which unfortunately Zoroastrianism is not anymore) and the pillar of respect for others - and in most instances hard for many of us to adhere too on a day to day basis, even though it's only a simple phrase.

Having said that and back to our first female member who is my dear wife to be, I hope that she will contribute to this discussion as well, as she has always been a role model for me when it comes to tolerance of and kindness to others :kissass: Yet, just like many of us, she always has very strong words and opinions about the religion that she was first introduced too (which is Catholicism).

We always bring up the issue of Islam (because it is more directly related to Iran) in the discussion of religion, but I think this fine line that we're talking about exists in all religions and societies. It's just that others have found better ways of dealing with it, while we are still looking - and hopefully we will find it here. So while, Bill Maher can make fun of religion in the US and be okay, if someone where to do that in today's Iran, they would be in big trouble, if not dead!

On that note, I think we have a lot of fun work to do here and I'm glad everyone's jumping on it. :couple:

The topic of freedom of speech vs tolerance has been covered over and over again, without any real resolution. So I won't dwell on it. I would however like to draw your attention to the reality of these online forums.

From my experience, whenever we restrict self expression, be it through self-censorship or through strict regulation by moderators, that's when the forum disintegrates. You can have a religious member and a non-believer going at each other’s throats for hours (rather pages) on end, but they're not likely to spread their feud to other members. Sure they may degrade each other's beliefs and insult each other in ever more creative ways, but more often than not they will realise the futility of their discussion and turn away from it, until next time the issue comes up. Worst case scenario, one of them feels so annoyed that he or she will leave the forum. But the fact is that members who are worth having around will not let it come to that.

In the above scenario there is frustration, but no injustice. Frustration wears off, but injustice is seen to be a systematic and therefore not likely to go away. That's when members will turn away from the forum. Anyone who would've frequented IK over the past 7 years or so will have a clear idea of what I'm talking about.

Another issue that shouldn’t be overlooked is that in these situations, one party is often being unreasonable. Now if members have the freedom to express themselves as they wish, the majority will have no hesitations in making it known to the unreasonable party that he is out in the cold all by himself. Again if the member is reasonable, he will laugh it off and find some other common ground with the rest of the members (think General Parsaian). On the other hand if you were to limit people in their forms of expression, a collective sense of frustration would build up over the fact that members are powerless against the one single unreasonable individual.

On a lighter note, I suggest we make this a part of the registration process:

Any prospective members needs to flick through these cartoons (http://www.iranian.com/Satire/2006/February/Saman/5.html), and indicate that he or she is NOT offended by such material. Otherwise they are refused membership :D

On a lighter note, I suggest we make this a part of the registration process:

Any prospective members needs to flick through these cartoons (http://www.iranian.com/Satire/2006/February/Saman/5.html), and indicate that he or she is offended by such material. Otherwise they are refused membership :D

LOOL, thanks Cia jan and welcome aboard.

I thought I would start a debate on this topic considering that this was a major cause for arguments and people being banned on ISP.

The question is, to what extent should criticism of any religion be tolerated. If I am asking the wrong question, then people feel free to state your own.

The way I see it is simple: as long as you do not use any profanities towards other members then there should be no offence. For me, religious belief is a personal view. Just like some people really love a football club, and indeed many people regard their football club more highly than the religion they were born into. So if you way Perspolis horrible, you might upset perspolis fans and if you say Islam is horrible you might upset some devout moslems. But you shouldn't get a ban for such a thing. This is what happened on ISP far too often.

I would like to hear what others think about this.

Good call Behrooz jan. I'm not a religous person at all, but as long as you keep your religion to yourself I don't think there should be any problems. I have a problem with people who try to shove their religous beliefs down your throat. I don't think you should be banned for expressing your religous or political beliefs because I believe in freedom of speech. If we can't exchange ideas how are we going to learn from each other?

I don't think you should be banned for expressing your religous or political beliefs because I believe in freedom of speech. If we can't exchange ideas how are we going to learn from each other?

Sherwin, let's not talk about banning people. No one is going to get banned for expressing their thoughts. The point here is to say what ever is in your mind but keep it respectful.

By that I don't mean you (generic) should not express your thoughts because someone's feeling might get hurt. The only criteria is to respect our fellow members.

As an example just bacuse there are 1 billion + Moslems on this planet, it does not mean I will not question the validity of their core belief but I will not go calling Artavile as an example a stupid moslem or something.

Sherwin, let's not talk about banning people. No one is going to get banned for expressing their thoughts. The point here is to say what ever is in your mind but keep it respectful.

By that I don't mean you (generic) should not express your thoughts because someone's feeling might get hurt. The only criteria is to respect our fellow members.

As an example just bacuse there are 1 billion + Moslems on this planet, it does not mean I will not question the validity of their core belief but I will not go calling Artavile as an example a stupid moslem or something.

This is exactly why I think that this website can be something specia. I think as long as we are respectful and open minded everything should be fine. I'll give a classic example my cousin Ali is a devout Muslim and the only time I go to a Mosque is for like a wedding. We get along great but we really don't talk about religous issues because he has his beliefs and I respect that, but he also respects my beliefs.

One thing I like about Moslems is that in general they keep their religion to themselves. Most devout Christians on the other hand have this notion that they need to "convert" everyone they come into contact with. That is where I have a problem. I'm not saying ALL CHRISTIANS but the ones that I encountered have this feeling that they need to "save" everyone. That is when I get upset personally.

You are 100% entitled to your religous beliefs just don't shove it down my throat. That's all I'm saying but if you peacefully practice your religion I don't care if you worship the devil.

From Sadegh Hedayat

ما که عادت نداشتیم دخترانمان را زنده به گور کنیم ، ما برای خودمان تمدن وثروت و آزادی و آبادی داشتیم و فقر را فخر

نمیدانستیم همه

اینها را از ما گرفتند وبجاش فقرو پشیمانی و مرده


پرستی و گریه و گدائی و تأسف واطاعت از خدای غدار و قهار و آداب کونشوئی و خلأ رفتن برایمان آوردند ، همه چیزشان آمیخته با کثافت و پستی و سود پرستی و بی ذوقی و مرگ و بدبختی است.

چرا ریختشان غمناک و موذی است و شعرشان چوس ناله است چونکه با ندبه و زوزه و پرستش اموات همه اَش سرو کار دارند.

برای عرب سوسمار خوری که چندین صد سال پیش به طمع خلافت ترکیده، زنده ها باید به سرشان لجن بمالند و مرگ و زاری کنند.

..... ، در مسجد مسلمانان اولین برخورد با بوی َگند خَلأست که گویا وسیله تبلیغ برای عبادتشان و جلب کفار است تا به اصول این مذهب خو بگیرند. بعد این حوض کثیفیکه دست و پای چرکین خودشان را در آن می شویند و به آهنگ نعره مؤَذن روی زیلوی خاک آلود خودشان دولا و راست میشوند و برای خدای خونخوارشان ِورد و اَفسون میخوانند.

... , عید قربان مسلمانان با کشتار گوسفندان و وحشت و کثافت و شکنجه جانوران برای خدای مهربان و بخشایشگر است خدای جهودی آنها قهار و جبار و کین توز است و همه اش دستور کشتن و چاپیدن مردمان را میدهد وپیش از روز رستاخیز حضرت صاحب را میفرستد تا حسابی دَخل اُمتش را بیاورد و آنقدر از آنها قتل عام بکند که تا زانوی اسبش در خون موج بزند.

تازه مسلمان مومن کسی است که به امید لذتهای موهوم شهوانی و شکم پرستی آن دنیا با فقر و فلاکت و بدبختی عمر را بسر برد و وسایل عیش و نوش نمایندگان مذهبش را فراهم بیاورد. همه اَش زیر سلطه اَموات زندگی میکنند و مردمان زنده امروز از قواننین شوم هزار سال پیش تبعیت میکنند کاری که پست ترین جانوران نمیکنند.

عوض اینکه به مسائل فکری و فلسفی وهنری بپردازند ، کارشان این است که از صبح تا شام راجع به شک میان دو و سه استعامنه قلیله و کثیره بحث کنند.

این مذهب برای یک وجب پائین تنه از عقب و جلو ساخته و پرداخته شده. انگار که پیش از ظهور اسلام نه کسی تولید مثل میکرد و نه سر قدم میرفت ، خدا آخرین فرستاده خود را مامور اصلاح این امور کرده!

تمام فلسفه اسلام روی نجاسات بنا شده اگر پائین تنه را از آن حدف کنیم اسلام روی هم میغلتد و دیگر مفهومی ندارد. بعد هم علمای این دین مجبورند از صبح تا شام با زبان ساختگی عربی سرو کله بزنند سجع و قافیه های بی معنی و پر طمطرق برای اغفال مردم بسازند ویا تحویل بدهند.

سرتا سر ممالکی را که فتح کردند، مردمش را به خاک سیاه نشاندند و به نکبت و جهل و تعصب و فقر و جا سوسی و دوروئی و دزدی و چاپلوسی و کون آخوند لیسی مبتلا کردند و سرزمینش را صحرای برهوت در آوردند.
....
اما مثل عصای موسی که مبدل به اژدها شد وخود موسی از آن ترسید این اژدهای هفتاد سر هم دارد این دنیا را می بلعد. همین روزی پنج بار دو لا راست شدن جلو قادر متعال که باید بزبان عربی او را هجی کرد، کافی است تا آدم را تو سری خور و ذلیل و پست و بی همه چیز بار بیاورد.

مگر برای ما چه آوردند ؟ معجون دل به هم زنی از آرا و عقاید متضادی که از مذاهب و ادیان و خرافات پیشین ، هول هولکی و هضم نکرده استراق و بی تناسب بهم در آمیخته شده است، دشمن ذوقیات حقیقی آدمی، و احکام آن مخالف با هر گونه ترقی و تعالی است واقوام ملل به ضرب ششمشیر به مردم زوزچپان کرده اند. یعنی شمشیر بران و کا سۀ گدائی است، یا خراج و جزیه به بیت المال مسلمین بپردازید یا سرتان را میبریم هر چه پول و جواهر داشتیم چاپیدند. آثار هنری ما را از میان بردند و هنوز هم دست بردار نیستند؛ هر جا رفتند همین کار را کردند.

I think anything should go as long as we dont use profanities. :)

I think anything should go as long as we dont use profanities. :)

I agree with you and that is a great theory but we all know that's not going to happen my friend. The problem is that when you talk about politics and religion people get passionate, and sooner or later they will use profanity.

I say we should be able to talk about whatever you want but if you start to use profanity and insult the other person, or attack that person just because they have a different view, that should not be tolerated.