?????? ?????? : ??????? ????? ???? ? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? "????" ??? ??????? ????? ? ???????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ?????? ?? ?? ??? ??????.
?? ????? ???????? ?????? ? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??? ? ??????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ? ?? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ????? ?????.
?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????????? ?? ?????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ? ???? ?? ?? ????? "????? " ? "???? " ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ?? ???? ??????.
?? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ??? ?????????????? ? ?? ??????? ????????? ????? ?? ?????? ???????? ? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ?????.
???????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ??????? ?? "??????" ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ? ???? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?????????? ???? ???.
?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????.
YouTube - majrohinashraf
________
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LOL at the typo from the report ;)

بلدوزر" با ویران کردن درب ورودی پایگاه وارد اشرف گردیده

YouTube - hamle be ashraf3
________
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Timing of this development is pretty interesting. :DrEvil: Given the current situation in Iran, Islamic Shit (IS) must have paid eye-rack-ee government millions of $$$$$ for taking measures to eliminate MKO, which is another opportunistic potential rival. :laser:

Timing of this development is pretty interesting. :DrEvil: Given the current situation in Iran, Islamic Shit (IS) must have paid eye-rack-ee government millions of $$$$$ for taking measures to eliminate MKO, which is another opportunistic potential rival. :laser:
True,
But it can also be considered as double edged sword.
I.S could be less concerned while they were all gathered in Iraq than members being dispersed all over the region and some (many?) find their way inside Iran. No?

True,
But it can also be considered as double edged sword.
I.S could be less concerned while they were all gathered in Iraq than members being dispersed all over the region and some (many?) find their way inside Iran. No?

I think it is the last. Iraqi govenment disarm them to avoid being blamed by
Iran of medeling.
________
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Thanks for the post DS jaan. I actually read that 50+ people were injured or killed in an incident @ Ashraf in one of the Twitter feeds, but I thought they were referring to a past event since I couldn't find anything on it. So, was anyone injured, or what's the story? What are they going to do with these people and what the hell were they still doing there?!

Thanks for the post DS jaan. I actually read that 50+ people were injured or killed in an incident @ Ashraf in one of the Twitter feeds, but I thought they were referring to a past event since I couldn't find anything on it. So, was anyone injured, or what's the story? What are they going to do with these people and what the hell were they still doing there?!

The story is that the government of Iraq ask MKO to leave the place. MKO
resists and that is what happens. No one killed but several injured. Why did they do that? Because They vanted to help protestor in Iran and officially asked the govenment to let them do so. Why dose the government refuse?
Several possiblitis but my thought is that US don't want the protestors to win
now. Maybe later but now. Obama has been surprizingly passive about this issue. Because he want Iran to stay out of Iraq and maybe he dose not want
unpredicted events to happen inside Iran.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090728/twl-iraqi-army-storms-iranian-opposition-3cd7efd_1.html

Iraqi army storms Iranian opposition camp
5 hours 8 mins ago

Ali Al-Tuwaijri Print Story The Iraqi army seized control on Tuesday of the main base for Iran's main armed opposition in exile after months of a tense standoff, military officials said. Skip related content
Related photos / videos The Iraqi flag flutters as Iraqi soldiers walk along a bridge linking the Ghazaliyah and ?More Enlarge photo
Related content
Iran exiles say Iraq forces kill 4 in camp raid
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Related Hot Topic: Iran
Have your say: Iran
The storming of Camp Ashraf, which was disarmed by the United States in 2003 and surrounded by American forces until recently, coincided with a visit to Iraq by US Defence Secretary Robert Gates.

The offensive, which one police source said left 15 people wounded, came after the People's Mujahedeen said it was ready to return to Iran if the authorities there would guarantee its members would not be abused.

"After the failure of negotiations with the Mujahedeen to enter peacefully, the Iraqi army entered Camp Ashraf with force and it now controls all of the interior and all entrances to the camp," an Iraqi military source said.

"There were no injuries, only shouts and insults from the camp's residents."

A police source said later, however, that 15 camp residents were injured, three of them seriously, when riot police, called in by the army to quell unrest in the camp, began beating residents.

Camp Ashraf is located in Diyala province, north of Baghdad, and is home to around 3,500 Mujahedeen supporters and their families. It was set up in the 1980s when now executed Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein was in power and at war with Iran as a base to operate against the Iranian government.

The People's Mujahedeen said in a statement that Iraq police had launched an attack on Ashraf by firing "pepper gas."

Police vehicles demolished the side fences and walls while police officers on foot forced their way into the camp, the Mujahedeen said.

"The Iranian Resistance holds the US forces responsible for protection of Ashraf residents and calls on the UN secretary general and all human rights organisations to intervene immediately to stop attack by Iraqi forces."

An Iraqi army spokesman in Diyala said two battalions of 400 soldiers each took part in Tuesday's operation, which was ordered by Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's office.

A further 200 riot police from Diyala later joined.

The camp was disarmed by US forces after the 2003 invasion of Iraq that toppled Saddam and US troops had surrounded it until Iraqi forces took over responsibility earlier this year.

The Mujahedeen said earlier that it was ready to return to Iran, subject to conditions.

The group's leader Maryam Rajavi said in a statement the Iranian regime would have to pledge "not to arrest, torture, prosecute or restrict the freedom of expression" of residents of Camp Ashraf willing to return to Iran.

The Mujahedeen, which seeks to overthrow Iran's Islamic regime, is branded a terrorist organisation by the United States, while the European Union only removed it from its blacklist earlier this year.

It was founded in 1965 in opposition to the shah, but was sidelined by the rival clerical regime which took power in the 1979 Islamic revolution.
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That's all fine and dandy DS jaan, but didn't the Iraqi government ask these guys to leave back in January 2009? When I was searching for this piece of news, I found a few articles from back in Jan-May of 2009 saying that this was imminent and they had been asked to leave. So, I don't think on the bigger scheme of things it's related to the protests in Iran, although the timing may be somehow related.

I heard about this in the morning on NPR, but at the time they had not attacked yet. I guess since then they have attacked.

LOL at the typo from the report ;)

بلدوزر" با ویران کردن درب ورودی پایگاه وارد اشرف گردیده

Hamid jan,

You think it would have been better if it was worded this way?
Bolouzer ba viran kardan darbe ashraf varede paygah gardideh.

I found a few articles from back in Jan-May of 2009 saying that this was imminent and they had been asked to leave.
Where should they leave to?
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Have you guys heard of some POWs who are still in Iraq, in MKOs hands? I have a friend who says her distant cousin was a POW and Iranian government had told his family that he has died. But a few years ago he makes a phone call to his family and tells them that he is alive but still not free. They are hoping that with this new development he can come back to Iran.

I too don't think this incident is unrelated to the latest upsrisings inside Iran. I think this attack has come about as a direct consultation between IR and Iraqi government.

I have no sympathy for Mojahedin but I do worry about many of the ordinary members inside the camp who have been desparate to leave for years but have been imprisoned by this aggresive cult and its hardline members.

It will be interesting to know where the members will flee to next. Will the Iraqi government hand them to Iran? If so I fear for their lives.

Surely, they acan apply for refugess status anywhere in the world. I thought that's why they were pushing for so long to be taken of EU's terrorist organizations. Obviously, they couldn't have gone anywhere then but...

Iraqi officer: Raid on Iranian exile camp kills 7

A police officer and members of an Iranian opposition group say seven people were killed in an Iraqi raid on the exiles' camp north of Baghdad. Some government officials denied any deaths in Tuesday's raid on Camp Ashraf and the casualty reports could not immediately be independently verified.

The People's Mujahedeen Organization of Iran said a standoff at the camp continued for a second day Wednesday. An Iraqi police officer at the scene confirmed seven were killed. The officer spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information. About 3,500 ex-Iranian fighters and relatives live in Camp Ashraf, first set up in 1986 to help Saddam Hussein in the Iraq-Iran war. (from AP)

True,
But it can also be considered as double edged sword.
I.S could be less concerned while they were all gathered in Iraq than members being dispersed all over the region and some (many?) find their way inside Iran. No?

Rasoul jan, I see your point, but it’s possible that I.S. has something more sinister in the making. They may “capture” some of the MKO members while crossing into Iran and use them to build a case against the movement by “unfolding” a network that is associated with terrorist activities or even plans to assassinate A.G. At this point anything is possible.

Hamid jan,
You think it would have been better if it was worded this way?
Bolouzer ba viran kardan darbe ashraf varede paygah gardideh.

LOL, bechareh Ashraf is never gonna be the same again.
.

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????? ??? : ???????? ?????????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ????? ? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???. ??? ???????? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???. ??? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ??? ????? ??? ???????? ??????? ???? ??????? ?? ?????.
???? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ??????? (? ?????) ????? ??????? ? ??????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ???? ???. ???????? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ?????? ???????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??????? ???? ???. ??? ???????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ?????????.
?? ????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???????? ??? ????? ????? ???.

????????? ?????? ?????

???? ???? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ????????? ????????? "???????" ?? ???? ?? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?????????????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???? ???. ?? ?????? ?????? ??????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ???????. ??? ????????????? ??? ????? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ???????? ???. ??????? ???????? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????.
?????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???. ??? ?? ?????? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ????? ? ????? ?? ????????? ????.

????? ????? ???? ?????

???? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ????? ??????? ???. ?? ????? ???????? ??? ?? ??? ????????? ??? ????????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ???: ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?????????? ??? ????.?

"????? ??????? ???? ????? ? ??? ???? ?????

?????? ??? ????????? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???.
"????? ?????????? ???? ?? ???? ???" ?? ????? ???????? ?????? ? ???? ?? ????????? ???? ? ???????? ?????? ??????? ??? ????? ?? ?? ?? ???? ???????? ????? ????? ?????.
???? ???? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ??????? ??? ????? ? ??????????? ???? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ? ???? ????? ??.
"????? ?????????? ???? ?? ???? ???" ?? ??? ???????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ???? ?????????? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ? ??? ????? ???? ???.
"????? ?????????? ???? ?? ???? ???" ??????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????????? ?? ???? ????????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??????? ????? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?????. ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ? ???????? ???? ??? ?? ??????? ? ????????? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ? ??????? ????? ??? ????????? ?? ?? ????? ???? ????? ????.




Not that I like this subject to continue but seems like Iran and US relation is
not so bad as it looks like.

If US disarms MKO why should Iraqis kill and beat them when they know they are disarmed?
________
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It will be interesting to know where the members will flee to next. Will the Iraqi government hand them to Iran? If so I fear for their lives.

Who cares? Let them die. The MFs were fighting against Iran at the Iran-Iraq war. There is no bigger traiter than that! They'd deserve it.

Who cares? Let them die. The MFs were fighting against Iran at the Iran-Iraq war. There is no bigger traiter than that! They'd deserve it.

True and I agree. These same people were fighting against Iran and killing Iranian soldiers years ago, now we are supposed to have sympathy for them? Not me.

Who cares? Let them die. The MFs were fighting against Iran at the Iran-Iraq war. There is no bigger traiter than that! They'd deserve it.

Inteesting, now lets look at it from different point of view :)

Whenever unarmed human beings are being killed and tortured like animals, without given a trial or an opportunity to defend themselves, one should feel sympathy toward them. Human rights are not only for people who we agree with based on our political ideas or we share common goals with them. Human rights are for all of us. This is why even POWs enjoy such laws. This is why even war criminals are given trials and...

Let’s look MKO historically: Based on what I know (which could be completely wrong) this group was one of the major forces in the fight against Shah and his tyranny. If one assumes that Shah was bad for Iran and revolution was necessary and ... Then one should also appreciate the sacrifice and the fight that some of the members of this organization did for the “Freedom of Iran”. Why so much animosity toward them?
Let’s look at 1360 and when things really fell through for them and Imam decided to put them aside. Their leaders’ right to participate in election were revoked. Their supporters were being arrested, tortured, raped and killed without even having trials. There are stories of 15 year old boys who were shot because they were arrested carrying MKO newspapers!!! Does this remind you of anything that just happened recently!!
Now, let us assume that you are one of those members for spent last 10 years of life fighting the tyranny of Shah, sacrificed everything and ... But now suddenly , Imam Khomeini, the manifestation of Evil on earth, decided to take our freedom away. Also, you see your cousins, best friends, brothers or sisters being butchered by regime thugs, basij and Komiteh and ... in the streets of Tehran that you just fought few years back to free from the oppression and ...
To make the matter worst, you are armed as well!! You have the thugs hunting us door by door, house by house and we have weapons and ... What would you do? Would you put down your weapon and sit in your house and wait for them to come and get you? Or would you just recant and become a Basiji and join the hunt!!
This is all happening when the rest of the society has chosen to have blind eyes on the rape and torture and killings of your comrades. It took the society another 25 years to come to their sense and act all surprise seeing that this brutal regime is capable of this horrific acts.
Is the enemy of my enemy my friend? I don’t know. Was that a wrong strategic move? I probably have to say yes. Was there any other route for them? I am not so sure.
Now that you decided to fight against Iranian regime but not in the streets (Since you did it and saw it either not resulting to anything good or saw it taking too many innocent lives), who is your enemy? Is it army? Is it Sepah? Is it Basij ? Can you even differentiate? Does your hate even allow you to do so? Remember, you might have just find out our sister was raped because what she believed in or your 18 year old brother was killed because he did not believe in that dictator Imam.

My father served in Iranian army in Kurdistan in 1359. He recalls that there was a Sepah camp close to the army camp. Kurdish fighters at that time choose to only attack the Sepah. Sepah’s camp was under fire every night, Sepahis were being beheaded and ... while army camp was not experiencing any of these events. But did that last long? No, we saw that in few years even army was under attack. Was it because the hate grew too much? Or was it because it was too difficult to fight while being so selective?
Now, let’s move on to the current time. So you made mistakes. You made the wrong move and...
Do you deserve a second chance? I don’t know!! Didn’t we all forgive many of the leaders of green movement with VERY QUESTIONABLE past and decided to give them a second chance? Don’t we all use the excuse of people can grow and can change now a day to forget the past of some of our leaders and our current brothers in the common cause? So why can’t we forgive some of these MKO members?

Now, Are we sure everyone that is in Camp Ashraf is there with on their free choice and not forced to stay there? Maybe they don’t want to be there but are scared to come to Iran? Let’s face it, a 18 year old boy gets shout 3 times for saying “ Ya Hussin , Mir Hussian” in the streets of Tehran, so just imagine what would a basiji do to a MKO member ? Innocent and pure Angle like Ms, Mussavi has to die under rape and torture because she was standing around waiting for her class in the street. Just imagine what the MKO girl thinks when she imagines being in hand of the thugs of the regime.

All that being said ( and I apologize for taking your time), this boils down to humanity, one’s right to a fair trial, one’s right to be treated like a human being. Torture and killing is inhuman even for one’s enemy.

Shahin jan, You're correct about the human rights. If I was to choose, I'd certainly choose to give them a fair trial. But if they get killed without trial, please don't ask me to have sympathy for them. None of the things you mentioned justifies the right for you to attack your own country (no matter who the leader is) and killing your own country men (some of them happen to be basijis but many of them ordinary soldiers). I don't know what kurds did...but at that time when Iraq is attacking the country, sepah, basij, the army, everybody are fighting there to defend THE COUNTRY. At the very least, as a mojahed, you should have the same enemy as your country men FIRST (not joining them) and THEN fight for your agenda.

If Mousavi and the green movement of today, would do the same thing in a war against Iran, they'd be nothing but traitors. No matter how many Nedas have been killed.

Everybody deserve a second chance? Sure..they might. But everybody who are truely regretful! Mousavi and the other supporters are at least fighting to try to make things right. Unfortunately many of the mujahedins are even proud of what they've done. To me, that is not excusable.

Everybody deserve a second chance? Sure..they might. But everybody who are truely regretful! Mousavi and the other supporters are at least fighting to try to make things right. Unfortunately many of the mujahedins are even proud of what they've done. To me, that is not excusable.

Shahin jan, on my way to work, I was thinking about this discussion and I have to take back what I said here. No, they don't even deserve a second chance. If everybody deserved a second chance then any killer would just walk around living his life without punishment as if nothing happened.

Anybody who's killed innocent lives should be punished for it. With trial? Great. Without trial? ah well..too bad. But I wouldn't feel sorry for them one bit.

Sly jan,
first of all the message US is sending to Iranian protestors is not so good. Hezbollahis are so happy about this and the worst thing we should do these
days is to fall apart. MKO will also give energy to the movement and to me they should be welcome to help. Secound some day we should forgive each other and be friend. I remember the start of rev and many young inoccent MKO supporter who risked their lives fighting with IR. On the other hand yes I hate MKO not just because of helping sadam but because of their political views. But the truth is they have as much right to be called Iranians as we others. Who says that we all have always done the right thing all throught our lives. Has mosavi done that? RP?

In the end I am worried that the coup makers are about to win. As they arrest so many people they may be ables to disorganize people and stay
in power for several years. If they win this time there will go long time til you see so much protests in streets. For then the people will know that
they risk being beaten to deadth without nothing happens. Stay concentrated about winning because if we lose we die. A victory either
comes this year or never in our lives.
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YouTube - Rep. Lincoln Diaz-Balart Denounces the attack on Camp Ashraf on House Floor
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Shahin jan,

I also agree with you on your points about human rights and that unarmed people should not be attacked and killed. But the rest of your post is open to debate.
Although the mujahedin were involved in overthrowing the shah who was a tyrant, it doesn't give them any right to do as they please thereafter. Many other organisations and people of different beliefs were also involved in the overthrow of the shah. Mujahedin were only a small group. The tudeh party, for example, nehzad azadi, jebhe melli, etc were also involved at that time.

But the one group that took it upon itself to take the fight to the Iranian people afterwards is the mujahedin. We are not talking about a democratic group here. We are talking about people with strong ideology who are prepared to kill others for their beliefs, for masoud and for maryam. They will do anything to obtain power in Iran and god forbid if they do, because they will be 100 times worse than khamenei and IR. They will not be coming to bring democracy for you an me, they will not come to let you and I choose our leaders. They have already got their leader and they will impose them on the rest of us. They will be coming to say Rajavi is our leader and if you dissent you will be put in prison. Mujahedin means more arrests, more prisons, more oppression, more torture, more control of our beliefs and thoughts, more of the same as now if not worse.

Finally, if the choice is between IR with Ahmadinejad/Khamenei and Mojahedin with Rajavi I will take Khamenei and AN anyday.

Finally, if the choice is between IR with Ahmadinejad/Khamenei and Mojahedin with Rajavi I will take Khamenei and AN anyday.

Without getting into details of what MKO has or hasn't done during the Shah or I.S., the above statement pretty much sums up how I feel about them as well.

If anyone thinks I.S. is the worst that can happen to Iran, think again, MKO is even worse. In any case there is no way in the hell that they would have any role in future of Iran. Having said that, I am OK with their regular ranks and file to come back and live like any other Iranian citizen.

Well Rasoul jaan was in the front lines going against these guys (even if indirectly). I'd be interested to know his thoughts are on them? Should we forgive and forget or curse them for all eternity?

And this is in response to your post as well Behrooz jaan, if we're going to forgive and forget the Mousavi's of the world and even rally behind them (as someone who worked under the IS system and they obviously did as they pleased after the revolution), what's the difference with the MKO. Should we hold a grudge forever, or should we at least accept the POSSIBILITY that they may have changed and be better human beings now?

While they were in Iran during Shah and couple of years after Rev. they were being supported by USSR, money, weapons, tactics, training, communication you name it.

When US force ask them to hand over their weapons they were all supposed to be heavy tactical weapons, they were permitted to keep an arsenal of small arms.
Those are the weapons I believe they used to clash with EYE-racky forces. If they did not fight back there wouldn't be 7 killed many injured.

Comparing Mousavi, Sazgara and alike's back ground with MKO is not valid. People working with IS just after the conception of revolution had noble intention of serving the country and like millions of other Iranians they had no idea that IS will end up being what it is today.
At the other hand MKO knew what exactly they were doing, they were trying to take over the country no matter the cost. Meeting and shaking hands with 100Damn while he was gasing our innocent countrymen is not really compatible with working for IS at the early stages of the Rev.

Sympathy? Well I'm wholeheartedly against punishing any human being without humane due process and I have limited amount of sympathy which I prefer to save and convey toward millions of others human being in the world who I'm certain they deserve it.

Behrou jan, I am all for forgiving but as Rasoul pointed out, the comparison between Mousavi and Rajavi is not a valid one. Even so, the people you see rallying behind mousavi are using him as a means of achieving something else, which is freedom from the IR all together. Don't believe for one moment that the same people would put up with Mousavi's presidency if he didn't give them the freedoms they want.

For many reasons I am deeply fearful of the Mujahedin as hokoomat. They have deep rooted accounts to settle over many things that has lasted over 30 years and will get worse as more and more happens to them. They won't stop killing if they ever get hold of power in Iran. They have a lot to kill for. Their presence will set back the efforts of Iranian people to achieve democracy and freedom. Their hokoomat will take us back years.

Having said all that, I too am happy for their lower rank members to return to Iran and live safely without the threat of persecution, torture and imprisonment.

At the very least, as a mojahed, you should have the same enemy as your country men FIRST (not joining them) and THEN fight for your agenda.


.

Sly Aziz, Thank you for your respond. I am going to ask you how this is possible while you are hunted in the street by Basij and ...

Then lets looks at the time lines:

War started in 1979 , MKO was atill Iran so many of their members could have been fighting the enemy.

June 20 1981, their famous demonstrations, again, This is a time that things get very heated between then and Imam. They are still in Iran fighting the regime and not Iranians.


I think they moved to Iraq in 1986 after their leadership was kicked out of France. so that gives them a window of 2 years beside Saddam.

So maybe afterall they did participate in the fight against Saddam at some period of time as well.

Anybody who's killed innocent lives should be punished for it. With trial? Great. Without trial? ah well..too bad. But I wouldn't feel sorry for them one bit.

Sly aziz, I am going to tell you little story about when you punish people without a trial, TAR va Khoshk Ba ham misozeh.

I have been reading people's posts for the last month or so and how majority of Iranians are in AWE of how regime is capable of torturing and killing and ...

In some ways, many iranians be it Todehi, Fadayee, Bahai, Kurdish, Baloch and ... did experience this savagery for many years. They saw their loved onee held in prisons for years without a trial.

They were asked to pay for bullet money.

They did saw the torture marks on the dead body of their brother, father and ...


However, the rest of Iran choos to be quiet. Rest of us said the following and pretend it is not happening, because , lets face it, we did not think it effected us:

Propaganda told us Bahai are spy for Isreail.
Propaganda told us all Kurdish are speretists.
Propaganda told us Todeh and Fadaye are communists who don't belive in God and therefore Kafar and ....
Propaganda told us, MKO is cult and wants to take over Iran therefore ok to kill them and ...

we waited and waited till almost 25 years later, we saw our brothers and sisters being subjected to the same cruelty !!! Now, many of us are in shock and ....

It just makes me wonder, what would have happened if we raised our voice and protest 25 years ago:
when MKO was set aside by Imam, or when Bahai was arrested or when Bache Todehi was tortured or when we saw the hanged body of our kurdish hamvatan and ....


Would things been any difference !!!!!

Comparing Mousavi, Sazgara and alike's back ground with MKO is not valid. People working with IS just after the conception of revolution had noble intention of serving the country and like millions of other Iranians they had no idea that IS will end up being what it is today.
.


That was not what I am saying.
First, I disagree with you when you say people who were serving the country after revolution had noble ideas. I think that is pretty big generalization. I think many of them were working for Islam, Jameh Islami and not Iran. for them the end result meant more than how they were achiving it.


As far the likes of Sazegara and ... Wasn't he in US most of the time before the revolutions ? One can argue ( not that I agree with) the likes of MKO , Fadaye and .... were the groups which did most sacrifise to free Iran and did all the heavy liftings.


Then the rest of the gang showed up and used Islam to "VELAYAT FAGIH" to take over.


I actually belive that many of those educated people like Sazegara and ... knew all about the Danger os creating a monster of " VELAYAT FAGIH" but thought of it as their best tool to keep a tight control on the reveloution and putting aside their rivals.

Also when I say people with questionable past I did not mean Mussavi himself or ... example: Mr.Hadi Ghafari !!! Isn't he in Karoubi's camp now !!!

Shahin jAn,
Velayat e Vaghih was not supposed to be a monster.
It was supposed to be a body of well qualified (Marjae' Taghlid) and just jurist who would sit on the side and watch lawmakers not to implement a law against sharia.
There was no difference between Velayat e Vaghih and Supreme Court in US.
Justices in USSC are appointed for life and are all but accountable for their actions.
Vely e Vaghih can be (which still is) impeached, fired or even prosecuted for his action. No one knew it will end up being a monster which is today.
I strongly believe khananei was the only one who could imagine this could transform itself to a monster, that was the reason he vigorously voted against single rahbar after the demise of khomeini. Rafi quted something from khomeini saying "emam has told him twice that khananei should be rahabr after him".
khananei even went behind the tribune to defend his NO vote and he got Booed by rest of majlis e khobregan. Video of this event is in U-Tube.

Sazegara was in UK before Rev. and then moved to Paris acting as press secretary for khomeini.

And NO!! MKO or Fadaeian didn't fight for Iran they fought for flourishing of their own ideology and they did every thing they could like assassinating 100s of people to get there. They couldn't and islamists did.
They are all the same in my book.

Not sure why we even need to discuss MKO anymore, as far over whelming majority of Iranians including your truly is concerned, MKO is totally irrelevant. Like I said before, I sympathize with most of them and frankly think it’s time for their lower ranks to move back to Iran, redeem themselves and live a normal life like other Iranian citizens.

I personally have nothing in common with their ideology nor how they go about obtaining their goals. IMO, all those poor souls killed by Emameh Jahel in mid 80’s have nothing to do with MKO either, they were young Iranians showing dissent towards establishment of IS through the means available to them at that time, just like the dissent through the green movement in Iran today.

Sly aziz, I am going to tell you little story about when you punish people without a trial, TAR va Khoshk Ba ham misozeh.

I have been reading people's posts for the last month or so and how majority of Iranians are in AWE of how regime is capable of torturing and killing and ...

In some ways, many iranians be it Todehi, Fadayee, Bahai, Kurdish, Baloch and ... did experience this savagery for many years. They saw their loved onee held in prisons for years without a trial.

They were asked to pay for bullet money.

They did saw the torture marks on the dead body of their brother, father and ...


However, the rest of Iran choos to be quiet. Rest of us said the following and pretend it is not happening, because , lets face it, we did not think it effected us:

Propaganda told us Bahai are spy for Isreail.
Propaganda told us all Kurdish are speretists.
Propaganda told us Todeh and Fadaye are communists who don't belive in God and therefore Kafar and ....
Propaganda told us, MKO is cult and wants to take over Iran therefore ok to kill them and ...

we waited and waited till almost 25 years later, we saw our brothers and sisters being subjected to the same cruelty !!! Now, many of us are in shock and ....

It just makes me wonder, what would have happened if we raised our voice and protest 25 years ago:
when MKO was set aside by Imam, or when Bahai was arrested or when Bache Todehi was tortured or when we saw the hanged body of our kurdish hamvatan and ....


Would things been any difference !!!!!

Shahin jan, you are trying to say that MKO did many good things in the beginning of enghelab and they were treated badly. But the thing is that what they did after that (in the Iran-Iraq war) was so bad that it took away everything good that they did and washed any sympathy any outsider would have for them for how they were treated.

Because NOTHING, not even the things you mentioned can "justify" that you attack your own country. Be it during 2 years or during 1 hour. After all, it was the iranian soldiers they were killing, not the top regime people. After all it was the same people who bombed our civilian houses they were helping.

Even if you are as good as jesus and save humanity in different ways, but later commit such acts, you are considered a traitor of the worst kind in my book.

You are right... the same things happened to bahaies, toodehies, etc. How come they didn't sell their own country for their agenda (be it right or wrong)? Likewise, and as said before, if Mousavi and the green movement of today would help another country in a war against Iran, they'd be as much of traitors as MKO.

Please don't ask me to sympathize with them, because I just can't. Even if I tried.

Finally, if the choice is between IR with Ahmadinejad/Khamenei and Mojahedin with Rajavi I will take Khamenei and AN anyday.
Touché!

I look at the Toodeh Party (even though my father was a member) with the same eyes.
They all (IS, MKO, Toodeh, Fadaayan) say general public does not understand thus irrelevant, we know better and we should rule.

Iranians are Nationalists and at end Nationalism will prevail.
I have seen many people comparing Iranian nationalism to Nazis of Germany, it is not true.
Iranian nationalism is and has always been inclusive while Euro Nazis were overtly exclusive.

Not sure why we even need to discuss MKO anymore, as far over whelming majority of Iranians including your truly is concerned, MKO is totally irrelevant. Like I said before, I sympathize with most of them and frankly think it’s time for their lower ranks to move back to Iran, redeem themselves and live a normal life like other Iranian citizens.

I personally have nothing in common with their ideology nor how they go about obtaining their goals. IMO, all those poor souls killed by Emameh Jahel in mid 80’s have nothing to do with MKO either, they were young Iranians showing dissent towards establishment of IS through the means available to them at that time, just like the dissent through the green movement in Iran today.

Well, that's what I was trying to get at Hamid joon. Should these guys just remain refugess for the rest of their lives (including their kids) or are we going to acknowledge and respect their rights like everyone else? Now, considering the sensitivities many Iranians have to the MKO, maybe the higher ranks, directly ones reponsible for attrocities against or killing of Iranians, should be put on trial if they want to return to Iran, but at the end of the day, I think this is an issue that needs to be sorted out in the bigger scheme of things, so we're not talking about these guys for another 20 years! I say, we should sort it all out, once and for all, like many other issues we need to sort out, and focus on all the rebuilding and catching up that we have to do - once IS is finshed in this format - which I'm sure is very soon.

Sly Aziz

I don’t think I am asking for one’s sympathy and was only showing the other side.
I am asking for basic human rights, one’s right to a fair trail!! Iranians have been victims of the persecutions without trails in the hands of this regime. Tortures, rape and killing without any prove of a crime or....

Why are we wishing the same for someone else? When is this circle going to end ?

I look at the Toodeh Party (even though my father was a member) with the same eyes.
They all (IS, MKO, Toodeh, Fadaayan) say general public does not understand thus irrelevant, we know better and we should rule.


REALLY ?? Todeh and Fadaye !!! I don't know, I know quite a few that I call uncles and they were all full of love for Iran and at the time, thought that was the best for their contry.

Sly Aziz

I don’t think I am asking for one’s sympathy and was only showing the other side.
I am asking for basic human rights, one’s right to a fair trail!! Iranians have been victims of the persecutions without trails in the hands of this regime. Tortures, rape and killing without any prove of a crime or....

Why are we wishing the same for someone else? When is this circle going to end ?

Shahin jan, I said I didn't care if they were punished without trial. I never wished it. On the contrary, I wish a fair trial for everyone, even MKO.

REALLY ?? Todeh and Fadaye !!! I don't know, I know quite a few that I call uncles and they were all full of love for Iran and at the time, thought that was the best for their contry.
Shahin jAn,
Khananei thinks he is # 1 Iran lover and tries to do "HIS" best for the nation.

Looking at what happened to Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Albania, and to some degree North Korea after the collapse of USSR I must say I'm glad Toodeh, MKO and Fadae'ian did never win to rule Iran.

I never remember being a fan or supporter of MKO. Never will be. Before rev, after rev or in future.
When I had my military service they arrested a good friend of mine who was an MKO member. He
Was sentenced to 10 years and was arrested 10 days before he finishes his military service. His name was Asghar. A true revolutionary young man with a lot of heard for Iran. I had started to be a fan of Tudeh party. I remember Kianouri had some tv duel with Beheshti. Me and my father was watching it and my father could not understand that Kianouri expected to be fairly treated by IR.
He said ?This Mr. Kianouri dose not know this society?. Some mounthes after Beheshti was killed.
Kianouri was arrested and forced to deliver a confession. In his confessions he said ?When he was
In prison he understood that he dose not know the Islamic society?. It was then I realized how experienced my father was. To day whenever I talk about MKO many posters insult MKO. I some how think it is unfair to people like Asghar. Some how I don?t like MKO myself amoung the reasons is their connection with Sadam. Polotics is a cruel world. I hope this generation establishes a democracy with best standards. Something the old generation could not do.
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I agree with RT and Behrou. The higher ranked MKO should go on trial and the lower ranks should be disarmed and join the rest of the country. Keep in mind that during these attacks, none of the higher ranked people die. It is the lower ranks who are mainly deceived or forced to stay with MKO.
I don't prefer AG and Basij to Rajavi, I think they should equally be removed from any power. I don't think Rajavi could do much worse than AG.
I also relate to Shahin's sentiment here. The people who get killed have different stories. Just imagine a kid that was born in the camp and has been brain washed to join them without any choice. There must be a whole bunch or 18 to 25 year olds like that in that camp. I am sure there are a lot of them who deserve a second chance, or even in some cases a first chance.

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Shahin jAn,
Khananei thinks he is # 1 Iran lover and tries to do "HIS" best for the nation.

Looking at what happened to Yugoslavia, Chechnya, Albania, and to some degree North Korea after the collapse of USSR I must say I'm glad Toodeh, MKO and Fadae'ian did never win to rule Iran.

And What happend to US Motori Aziz !!! Are we any better than the rest !!!



I belive many of those who you call khaen, had the love of their country in their heart and sacrifised it for Iran and for a better future for rest of us.
I belive they thought AT THAT TIME, What they belive in is the best solution. Ofcourse , now we know better and we know more, but the KEY is to Judge them
based on what they knew then !!!

I think you mentioned your father was Todehi ... Don't you think the man loved IRAN ?

Aren't many of our green leaders responsible for bringing Khomeyni to power ??? Do you think if they knew what they know now, they would have acted the same ???
We are forgiving their crimes and their involvement ( and maybe many of ours as well) in bringing to power one of the most brutal regimes in Iranian history But we can not offer same to others.


That Todehi or Fadaye or .... could have , like many other people, just grow RISH va PASHM and join the IR and enjoy a long life and ...
But they belived that Khomeyni is not the ansewr while some of us did. So maybe, we even owe them an apology for helping khomeyni and taying behind the likes of Khalkhali and ....

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And What happend to US Motori Aziz !!! Are we any better than the rest !!!


I belive many of those who you call khaen, had the love of their country in their heart and sacrifised it for Iran and for a better future for rest of us.

AghA Shahin,

I believe it is your assumption how I feel about these groups, because I never called them "Khaen".
What happened to us during past 30 years does not make those group's intentions right. What we are today is still far better than those nations I mentioned. They wanted communism in Iran no matter people approved it or not.

I belive they thought AT THAT TIME, What they belive in is the best solution. Ofcourse , now we know better and we know more, but the KEY is to Judge them
based on what they knew then !!!
They believed communism was the only solution and history has proved they were dead wrong.
Also I never judged them, I just pointed out historical facts.

I think you mentioned your father was Todehi ... Don't you think the man loved IRAN ?
I don't know! He used to have a picture of Lenin on the wall which we frequently had to take it down and hide it from others.
Also loving Iran and loving democratic Iran are totally different ballgame.

Aren't many of our green leaders responsible for bringing Khomeyni to power ??? Do you think if they knew what they know now, they would have acted the same ???
98% of Iranians brought khomeini to power.

Green Movement does not have a specific leader, people themselves are the leaders. We have learned this by having 4 bloody revolutions within span of 100 years and at present moment Iranians are not going after a dictator or a tyrant, they are after irradiating tyranny and dictatorship. We used to pick one leader and after a while make an idol out of him who in time transformed himself to full blown dictator which required more blood to bring him down and dismantle his tyrantdom. Leaders must always be one step behind people not way up front.

Green Movement is like heavy train which has already left the station moving fwd and Mousavi/Karoubi are on board just like the others. They do receive more respect than the average passenger but that is about it and none is at the helm of the movement.

We are forgiving their crimes and their involvement ( and maybe many of ours as well) in bringing to power one of the most brutal regimes in Iranian history But we can not offer same to others.
I don't understand how you are coming to such a conclusion. I never advocated who should be punished or who forgiven, I only said I have limited sympathy which I prefer to save it for those who I BELIEVE deserve it more. That is all.
It is Iranian people's decision how to deal with these groups (including I.S) who they believe they have done wrong in the past, may be hold few top dogs accountable (notice I didn't say killed, imprisoned, just accountable following due process) for the rest a general amnesty and get over with.


That Todehi or Fadaye or .... could have , like many other people, just grow RISH va PASHM and join the IR and enjoy a long life and ...
But they belived that Khomeyni is not the ansewr while some of us did. So maybe, we even owe them an apology for helping khomeyni and taying behind the likes of Khalkhali and ....

Sure they did!!
Kianouri (Toodeh party's leader) cooperated with Khmomeni as far as we used to call him Ayatollah Nouraldin e Kianouri. Kianouri gave his full support of akhounds, both before and after the 1982 political arrests.
In 1945 it was Toodeh who in direct collaboration with Soviets sided and supported Azarbaijan communist party and took over the whole province and called it The Republic of Azarbaijan, mounted their own flag and picked Jaa'far Pishevari as president.
If you check the whole history of Toodeh you'll find nothing glorious, never mind what they did in order to undermine Dr. Mossadegh's democratically elected gov.

For 2 consuctive years MKO cooperated with Khomeini, openly advocated for and supported Islamic Republic, Velayat Vaghih and the new Constitution.

Doo Doo hit the fan when these 2 groups realized that they have not been incorporated in the system, were blatantly sidelined and mandated to limit their political activities.
Frankly!! I don't know who should apologize to who.

AghA Shahin,

I believe it is your assumption how I feel about these groups, because I never called them "Khaen".
.

My apologizes Motori Aziz, I have read your post wrong and though the word was "khaen" . ( Engilisi ke yad nagereftam, farsi ham az yadam dareh mireh )
As far as history goes and ... I agree with you that communisim has been proven wrong but not many people could have predicated that at that age.

Also, as far as them supporting Mullah and .... atleast, they raised their objections many years before rest of us who willingly helped Mullahs to get where they are now.

Also about the green movement leadership, I disagree, I belive it has clear leaders who people look to and if those guys decide to stop their support, this whole thing will die in matter of a month.

The 98% that you mentioned, Do you mean 98% of Iranians wanted Khomeyni at the power ?!!!

My apologizes Motori Aziz, I have read your post wrong and though the word was "khaen" . ( Engilisi ke yad nagereftam, farsi ham az yadam dareh mireh )
chAkerim!!


As far as history goes and ... I agree with you that communisim has been proven wrong but not many people could have predicated that at that age.
Same applies to barbaric republic. Many people thought it is a good way of governance and not much later they realized hpw wrong they were.

Also, as far as them supporting Mullah and .... atleast, they raised their objections many years before rest of us who willingly helped Mullahs to get where they are now.
It was not many years, it was 6 years (1982 vs 1988). Also I strongly believe this period could be extended if these 2 groups were allowed to blend in with ruling elite.

Also about the green movement leadership, I disagree, I belive it has clear leaders who people look to and if those guys decide to stop their support, this whole thing will die in matter of a month.
I will agree with you if you present a single chant or slogan during all these protests which indicates who actually is the leader of Green Movement.

The 98% that you mentioned, Do you mean 98% of Iranians wanted Khomeyni at the power ?
I didn't mean 98% of population, I meant 98% of adult Iranians who could make decision at that time, this was reflected in saying "yes" to barbaric republic.
Also khomeini was not supposed to be in power, he was supposed to let the elected Gov. run the country and him and rest of akhoonds to go back in Qom and masjids and teach.
War changed every thing, it provided a strong platform for these goons to consolidate the power and obliterate the entire opposition in 8 years.

I also would like to bring a point to your attention.
Through out history of human civilization it have been proven time and time again that it is lot easier to topple a domestic dictatorship (colonial dictatorships don't fall under this category) if the opposition starts within the system itself. This is happening for us at this moment and the people who are shaking the I.S from inside have my full support.

This article from Times is about 8 month old but I think it relates to this thread so allow me to post it. It is very interesting and revealing.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1869532,00.html?iid=sphere-inline-sidebar

While they were in Iran during Shah and couple of years after Rev. they were being supported by USSR, money, weapons, tactics, training, communication you name it.

When US force ask them to hand over their weapons they were all supposed to be heavy tactical weapons, they were permitted to keep an arsenal of small arms.
Those are the weapons I believe they used to clash with EYE-racky forces. If they did not fight back there wouldn't be 7 killed many injured.

Comparing Mousavi, Sazgara and alike's back ground with MKO is not valid. People working with IS just after the conception of revolution had noble intention of serving the country and like millions of other Iranians they had no idea that IS will end up being what it is today.
At the other hand MKO knew what exactly they were doing, they were trying to take over the country no matter the cost. Meeting and shaking hands with 100Damn while he was gasing our innocent countrymen is not really compatible with working for IS at the early stages of the Rev.

Sympathy? Well I'm wholeheartedly against punishing any human being without humane due process and I have limited amount of sympathy which I prefer to save and convey toward millions of others human being in the world who I'm certain they deserve it.

Words of wisdom ...