آیت‌الله صانعی و مهدی کروبی در محاصره هواداران حکومت

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در پی حضور مهدی کروبی در منزل آیت الله صانعی، از مراجع شیعه در قم، شماری از هواداران حکومت بیت این مرجع تقلید را محاصره کرده و مانع از خروج مهدی کروبی از این محل شدند.


یکی از نزدیکان مهدی کروبی در گفت‌وگو با رادیو فردا ضمن اعلام این خبر تاکید کرد که حضور این جمعیت در اطراف منزل آیت الله صانعی سازمان‌دهی شده است و این افراد به تدریج با تماس‌هایی که با موبایل و بی‌سیم با یکدیگر می‌گرفتند به تدریج در محل حاضر شدند.

به گفته این منبع آگاه، هواداران دولت با سر دادن شعارهایی علیه مهدی کروبی به خودروی این رهبر اصلاح‌طلب با چوب و زنجیر حمله‌ور شده و به آن خسارات رسانده‌اند.

در همین حال گزارش شده است که تلفن‌های بیت آیت‌الله صانعی نیز مختل شده و تماس گرفتن با افراد داخل خانه به دشواری انجام می‌شود.

یکی از نزدیکان مهدی کروبی همچنین به رادیو فردا گفته است که محاصره بیت آیت‌الله صانعی، حمله به خودروی وی و تجمع این افراد در حالی صورت گرفته که نیروهای انتظامی شهر قم تنها نظاره‌گر ماجرا هستند و برای متفرق کردن این افراد یا جلوگیری از تخریب خودروی مهدی کروبی اقدام خاصی انجام نداده‌اند.

به گفته حاضران در محل، بیت‌ آیت‌الله صانعی همچنان در محاصره این افراد است.

مهدی کروبی برای شرکت در مراسم ختمی به این شهر سفر کرده بود و پس از آن برای دیدار با آیت الله صانعی به منزل وی رفته بود.


پس از انتخابات ریاست جمهوری سال ۱۳۸۸ بیوت و دفاتر شماری از مراجع و روحانیون بلندپایه حامی اصلاح‌طلبان، مورد تهاجم قرار گرفت که حمله بیت آیت‌الله خمینی هنگام سخنرانی محمد خاتمی در شب عاشورا، هجوم به بیت آیت‌الله منتظری پس از درگذشت وی، حمله به دفتر آیت‌الله صانعی، حمله به دفتر محمدعلی صدوقی امام جمعه منصوب آیت‌الله خمینی در یزد و حمله به مسجد آیت‌الله دستغیب عضو منتقد مجلس خبرگان رهبری، از جمله این اقدامات است؛ سیدحسن خمینی نیز در چهاردهم خرداد امسال، پس از اخلال هواداران حکومت در حضور آیت‌الله خامنه‌ای از ادامه سخنرانی خود بازماند.

این برای نخستین بار نیست که به بیت آیت‌الله صانعی حمله می‌شود؛ پس از درگذشت آیت‌الله منتظری در سال گذشته، بیت این مرجع منتقد حکومت، هدف حمله عده‌ای قرار گرفت (http://www.radiofarda.com/content/o2_hardliners_hit_dissident_ayatollah/1911057.html) به طوری که به دفتر وی آسیب وارد شد.

انتقادهای آیت‌الله صانعی، به حدی بود که جامعه مدرسین حوزه علیه قم، از تشکل‌های نزدیک به حاکمیت به ریاست شیخ محمدی یزدی، اعلام کرد که او مرجع تقلید نیست.

source: http://www.radiofarda.com/content/F8_SANEI_AND_KAROUBI_SIEGE/2070442.html

حمله اوباش حکومتی با زنجیر و باتوم به ماشین کروبی در قم

سایت کلمه: در پی حضور حجه السلام کروبی در بیت آیت الله صانعی، نیروهای سازمان یافته بیت فقیه عالی مقام را محاصره کردند.
به نقل از یک منبع آگاه در شهر قم، این نیروهای به ظاهر ارزشی در پی سفر امروز حجت السلام مهدی کروبی به قم، که برای شرکت در مراسم ختمی به این شهر سفر کرده بودند و پس از آن برای دیدار از آقای صانعی در بیت ایشان حضور پیدا کردند، با محاصره بیت این مرجع تقلید به شعار دادن علیه حجت الاسلام کروبی و آیت الله صانعی دست زدند.
به گفته آگاهان در شهر قم، بیت آیت الله صانعی همچنان در محاصره‌ی نیروهای وابسته به قدرت است.

حمله گروه سازماندهی شده با زنجیر و باتوم به ماشین کروبی در قم
مهدی کروبی، امروز در سفر خود به قم مورد حمله گروهی از افراد قرار گرفت که به گفته فرزند مهدی کروبی، خودسر نبوده وسازماندهی شده بودند.
کروبی گفت: ساعتی پیش با محافظ حاج‌ آقا در قم تماس گرفتم وی هم در وضعیت خوبی نبود. با این حال به من گفت که امروز گروهی به ماشین آقای کروبی که مقابل منزل آیت‌الله صانعی بوده، با زنجیر و باتوم و چوب حمله کرده‌اند و با این که این ماشین بسیار محکم است، اما کاملا از بین رفته و این شدت حملات این گروه را نشان می‌دهد.
وی با بیان این که پدرش همچنان در منزل آیت‌الله صانعی حضور دارد گفت: این جمع که به چند صد نفر می‌رسند همچنان در مقابل منزل آیت‌الله صانعی جمع شده‌اند.
حسین کروبی اضافه کرد: از نوع جمع شدن ناگهانی و رفتار این گروه پیدا ست که خودسر نیستند و از طرف گروهی سازماندهی و فرماندهی می‌شوند.
مهدی کروبی، تصمیم داشت تا امروز در سفر قم با آیت‌الله صانعی و سید حسن خمینی دیدار کند.
گفتنی است در طول یک سال گذشته بارها مهدی کروبی و اطرافیان‌اش مورد حمله نیروهای سازمان یافته قرار گرفته‌اند. یک بار در حاشیه نماز جمعه آیت‌الله هاشمی رفسنجانی پس از انتخابات اخیر، بار دیگر پس از حضور مهدی کروبی در شهر قزوین که پس از توهین و سنگ ‌پرانی در نهایت با شلیک گلوله به اتومبیل‌اش بدرقه‌ اش کردند.
همچنین در راهپیمایی‌های ۱۳ آبان و ۲۲ بهمن، کروبی مورد حمله نیروهای یگان‌ویژه قرار گرفت و در اسفند ماه سال گذشته، منزل این نامزد معترض انتخابات، مورد حمله عده‌ای قرار گرفت.

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yeah... saw that video.... he called ayatollahs house for Khaneye fesad! lol!!!

these guys crack me up :) I hope when the table turns, people track them down one by one & put something really long & metal shaped up their anus rings!

This was expected and these guys are (Mousavi, Khatami, Karroubi, Sanei) all going down. It's their own fault and I can't really say that I feel bad for them one bit. They pissed off the conservatives, they pissed off the people and other than their close circles (which is getting smaller every day) they have no friends left - it's the result of their own half-arse strategic mistakes and having previously served this regime to make it this strong.

Ba dorood:

Tarbiat Shodeh Khodehooneh so what do they expect?

Both of them have had hands in what they are facing with so NOOSH JAAN , HADJ AAGHAA. Bokhorid O Dandetoon Narm

Ba dorood:

Tarbiat Shodeh Khodehooneh so what do they expect?

Both of them have had hands in what they are facing with so NOOSH JAAN , HADJ AAGHAA. Bokhorid O Dandetoon Narm
Sane'i never was part of barbaric government or member of khomeini inner circle. He never involved in politics until the news about prison massacres started surfacing.

Avalan molaha hamashon kharan
But I agree with Rasul. I think Karubi & Mosavi hope to put him as the new SL
and kick khameneis ass. I have personally met Karobi and believe he was OK.
He did lots of good job for families of shahid specially during the war! If you also look at where he lives a flat in Tehran is not much for an MP. Is it?

Avalan molaha hamashon kharan
But I agree with Rasul. I think Karubi & Mosavi hope to put him as the new SL
and kick khameneis ass. I have personally met Karobi and believe he was OK.
He did lots of good job for families of shahid specially during the war! If you also look at where he lives a flat in Tehran is not much for an MP. Is it?

He wasnt just MP. He was Raeese Majlis!

Avalan molaha hamashon kharan
But I agree with Rasul. I think Karubi & Mosavi hope to put him as the new SL
and kick khameneis ass. I have personally met Karobi and believe he was OK.
He did lots of good job for families of shahid specially during the war! If you also look at where he lives a flat in Tehran is not much for an MP. Is it?
D.S jAn,
Sane'i in multiple occasion has denounced Velayat e faghih, claiming the whole concept is against islam.

Sane'i never was part of barbaric government or member of khomeini inner circle. He never involved in politics until the news about prison massacres started surfacing.

True dat Mr. A. The way I see that though is that people like him were enjoying all the benefits of the system for 30 years. The only time they've spoken up is when they thought they can grab power. Not exactly a noble act. He's definitely better than most of them (as is Karroubi) but it's all the same crap with different degrees of stinking. He considers people like us najes! ;)

As far as I know Karroubi's pretty loaded. I remember the BBC interview with him in his apartment and that was no oridinary apartment. His heavily into investments and just as a side note, his wife was only 14 when he married her at the of 26!!! :whistle:

Tofan jan
That is even better. He has not stolen so much money based on where he
lives.
D.S jAn,
Sane'i in multiple occasion has denounced Velayat e faghih, claiming the whole concept is against islam.
Even better again. I don't know every thing about him but he is certainly more
moderate than the rest.
A secret I want to reveal. If They could remove this velayete faghih paragraph
then Islamic repubilc could turn to Republic and I favour that. That will be less
costly than total collaps of system.

Tofan jan
That is even better. He has not stolen so much money based on where he
lives.

Even better again. I don't know every thing about him but he is certainly more
moderate than the rest.
A secret I want to reveal. If They could remove this velayete faghih paragraph
then Islamic repubilc could turn to Republic and I favour that. That will be less
costly than total collaps of system.
Sane'i is pro separation of State and religon, he claims "When politics and religion mix, the latter will always be the victim".

Ba dorood:

They say time heals everything but I believe time makes us forget past (at times).

Karubi’s case is one of them. This guy was the thief of palaces according to a book called ETERAAFAAT Hossien Borojerdi.

So, Karubi’s case is of the second kind, TIME MAKES US FORGET PAST!!

Sanaie has been outspoken about the regime’s doings but WORDS are just that WORDS!!

The “litmus” test is when you ask him about Islamic Revolution being just or not!!

I bet you that he defends the Islamic Revolution then you can decide on your own.

I say it again, NOOSH JOONESHOON TARBIAT KARDEH KHODESHOONEH.

Basijis are creation of Islamic Revolution just like Sepaah so what they get is their own doings.

Dear oldman
Based on your expierience how many men can come to be a top Iranian politician in Iran without being a charlatan?
I think Karobi is king compare to the rest of idiots. Just the fact that he has been beatten so many times lately and still continue his fight is something i have respect for.

True dat Mr. A. The way I see that though is that people like him were enjoying all the benefits of the system for 30 years. The only time they've spoken up is when they thought they can grab power. Not exactly a noble act. He's definitely better than most of them (as is Karroubi) but it's all the same crap with different degrees of stinking. He considers people like us najes! ;)

As far as I know Karroubi's pretty loaded. I remember the BBC interview with him in his apartment and that was no oridinary apartment. His heavily into investments and just as a side note, his wife was only 14 when he married her at the of 26!!! :whistle:
Why do you have to be so cruel to him just because he dresses different than you and I?
Weather you like it or not they are influential members of our society. Glad to see people like Sane'i exists amoung them.
What makes Sane'i and Church of England so different? Outfit??

Dear oldman
Based on your expierience how many men can come to be a top Iranian politician in Iran without being a charlatan?
I think Karobi is king compare to the rest of idiots. Just the fact that he has been beatten so many times lately and still continue his fight is something i have respect for.

Saeed jaan, Karroubi getting beaten is no different that those guys in the WWF putting on a show, getting beaten, and getting plaid for it. I decided to trust these guys (Karroubi and Mousavi) last year against my instincts and for the good of Iran but I have not seen anything from them to suggest that trust was earned or that they're after the good of Iran. Akhounds are always after the good of their pocket and nothing more.

The longer this situation with the IR goes on the stronger anti-akhound sentiments will become for future generations and when something finally snaps (which is the case when things aren't allowed to be dynamic and change slowly) it will be the blood of these guys on the streets not by the dozens, but by the 1000's. This generation may be willing to differentiate between good and bad akhounds, but with every passing year, this will become less of a possibility - an inevitability that we must face at this point.


Why do you have to be so cruel to him just because he dresses different than you and I?
Weather you like it or not they are influential members of our society. Glad to see people like Sane'i exists amoung them.
What makes Sane'i and Church of England so different? Outfit??

Rasoul jaan, you were the one who was judging Mohamad a man who lived 1400 years ago with 20th century standards and accusing him of being a child molastor. Karroubi is actually a 20th century man, judged by that centuries standards to be a child moslator! He is certainly no more influencial than Mohamad's little finger. So what if he's influencial? When these religous chrlattans learn to keep their nose out of politics and Iranian affairs, like the Church of England does, or when they retreat to the simanries in Qom like the Popes in Vatican did, then we can let them be. For now, this is a war between Iran and Islamists - all of them.

Ba dorood:

Direstraits, If the stance and getting beaten is the criteria then Karubi has to take back seat to many others.

As far as I am concerned, he is not worried about Iran or Iranians, he is not happy that he can not steal as much as the other Mullahs.

As I named the book in my previous post, you can learn more about his KEDAA personality. He is matched by his own wife!!!!

It is rather ironic, when he was in charge, he would not say a thing about the smae attrocities of torture and rape but when his hands are cut off FREE MONEY then he becomes hero!!

That is not how I define heros but then again, each of us have different take on how to define hero and heroism.

Those who were executed have my respect not a MULLAH as I beleive A MULLAH IS A MULLAH IS A MULLAH no mater how you slice them!!

Oldman,
If there was a free election Karubi / Mosavi were out of parliament. There
were nothing for them to steal

Oldman,
If there was a free election Karubi / Mosavi were out of parliament. There
were nothing for them to steal

They certainly don't support free elections Saeed jaan and have never asked for such a thing. They have just been pissed not to have been selected in the unfree "selections"! In fact, they have been very adamant that they fully protect the system that does not allow free elections.

I totally agree will Oldman that all these guys are nothing but a bunch of opportunistic and money-hungry blood-sucking vampires. They've been feeding on the blood of the Iranian nation for the past 30 years - be it all the killings at the beginning of the revolution, the Iran-Iraq war, or all the killings since, including last year. As soon as their blood supply dries up, they complain about it, not to stop the bloodshed, only to change the blood-suckers.

They certainly don't support free elections Saeed jaan and have never asked for such a thing. They have just been pissed not to have been selected in the unfree "selections"! In fact, they have been very adamant that they fully protect the system that does not allow free elections.

I totally agree will Oldman that all these guys are nothing but a bunch of opportunistic and money-hungry blood-sucking vampires. They've been feeding on the blood of the Iranian nation for the past 30 years - be it all the killings at the beginning of the revolution, the Iran-Iraq war, or all the killings since, including last year. As soon as their blood supply dries up, they complain about it, not to stop the bloodshed, only to change the blood-suckers.

I agree with Rasoul that this stance is a bit harsh. Mousavi had been there at home for the last 20 years and didn't have a government position. Why is he doing this now? His source of blood sucking (as you put it) has been dried up for the last 20 years. Has he made mistakes, of course. Has he been on the wrong side, yes. But until he is tried in a court you can't just label him like that.
The fact of the matter is that the current regime is doing everything to derail the opposition, and I think you are falling their trap. as long as there is division among the opposition groups the current regime is satisfied.
This guy lost his nephew during the events of last year. I guess you also forgot that his wife was there every step of the way alongside the people.
You know very well it is easy to sit here at this side of the world and say they should have done this and that. The fact of the matter is no revolution is going to be successful on the first try and most revolutions succeed with a lot of luck. Most of the time the attempts result in failure. You can't just label everyone who is unsuccessful as a bloodsucking vampire who is after their pocket.
It is easy to second guess them after the fact, and after their attempt was not successful, but there is no guarantee that any other attempt would have succeeded either.
For all the lip service we get from every politician sitting outside of Iran (whether they preach the right or wrong) how many of them has put so much on the line? You think Mousavi had to do anything to have the same kind of lifestyle he has had for the last 20 years?
Just think for a second what would you have done if you were in their place and what would have everyone labeled you if you failed. Sure, they have made mistakes but to question their intent like that is not fair.

In total agreement with PJ and rasul.
Do you guys think RP would have half of the guts they have shown?
You get what you deserve based on your efforts. When they are in Iran and fight the system they will have more respect from people than those who have been out of Iran. I think Motazeri chenged we have changed they have changed too!
This is what tajzadeh said
تاج زاده: از خطاهای خود در دهه اول انقلاب پوزش می خواهم
راديو فردا : مصطفی تاج زاده، معاون سیاسی وزارت کشور دولت محمد خاتمی و عضو جبهه مشارکت و سازمان مجاهدین انقلاب اسلامی که در مرخصی زندان به سر می برد از «خطا»هایی که وی و نسل انقلاب به ویژه در دهه اول انقلاب، انجام داده اند، پوزش خواست

I agree with Rasoul that this stance is a bit harsh. Mousavi had been there at home for the last 20 years and didn't have a government position. Why is he doing this now? His source of blood sucking (as you put it) has been dried up for the last 20 years.


That's not true at all Pedram jaan. Many people in Iran flourished under Rafi and Khatami and it was only when AN came in that he put a stop to the top hunchos and started cutting their source(s) of income or should I say baytol-maal. It's true that Iranians flourished in general, but these guys (the top hunchos) stole enough from Iran, so much so, that the surge of uneducated but highly loaded Iranians migrating to the West increased dramatically before the end of Khatami's presidency.


Has he made mistakes, of course. Has he been on the wrong side, yes. But until he is tried in a court you can't just label him like that.


Well, the first step of people like these going to court is the admission that they may be criminals and to stop following them. This is the very first step of a VERY long journey which will eventually lead to the possibility that we'd be in a position to prosecute members of the IR.


The fact of the matter is that the current regime is doing everything to derail the opposition, and I think you are falling their trap. as long as there is division among the opposition groups the current regime is satisfied.


The opposition was derailed by these two guys last year Pedram jaan and whatever remained of it, was derailed before the Bahman demonstration. These guys are NOT the opposition. They're simply the illusion of balance in a very complex political system.


This guy lost his nephew during the events of last year. I guess you also forgot that his wife was there every step of the way alongside the people.


So what? First of all, other than two five minute appearances through dozens of protests and demonstrations, Mousavi never took part in any - neither did his wife, nor Karroubi. Secondly, what does the fact the he lost his nephew have to do with anything? I lost my uncle and my cousin and half a dozen other close family members (aunts and cousins) spent time in IR jails at the beginning of the revolution. That doesn't mean anything in terms of who I am and what I stand for.


You know very well it is easy to sit here at this side of the world and say they should have done this and that. The fact of the matter is no revolution is going to be successful on the first try and most revolutions succeed with a lot of luck. Most of the time the attempts result in failure. You can't just label everyone who is unsuccessful as a bloodsucking vampire who is after their pocket.
It is easy to second guess them after the fact, and after their attempt was not successful, but there is no guarantee that any other attempt would have succeeded either.


That was certainly not my reason as I have clarified here Pedram jaan. Having said that, these guys were NEVER after a revolution. Quite the contrary, they have done everything to insure that a revolution does not take place - only enough change so that they, their buddies and their proxies regain power.


For all the lip service we get from every politician sitting outside of Iran (whether they preach the right or wrong) how many of them has put so much on the line? You think Mousavi had to do anything to have the same kind of lifestyle he has had for the last 20 years?


Absolutely. The power and money has been slipping away from the "reformists" for years under AN. The situation had gotten gradually worse. You have to realize that Mousavi does not represent himslef. He represents an ideology and a certain group - he was their representative to get this power and money back - that's all.


Just think for a second what would you have done if you were in their place and what would have everyone labeled you if you failed. Sure, they have made mistakes but to question their intent like that is not fair.

What I would have done Pedram jaan, in those early days after the election was to shut the fcuk up and let people do their thing, rather than laying claim to their struggle, and telling them to go home and shout Allah-o-Akbar from their rooftops instead, while they wait for me to reform the system. What I would have done was reach to the real people who have been suffering under the IR - the labourers who had not been paid for months before the election, those people who were forced to leave Iran under the IR, the ethnic and religous minorities, etc. You can rest assured that I wouldn't have been pushing all these people away, saying we have it under control and this is out movement.

Had this been an oversight on my part, I would have been trying to fix it by now. Rest assured my good man that I would not have been sitting on my ass and just meeting with my buddies, releasing pointless statement after statement. I would have been either in jail, killed or out of the country fighting for the cause that I believe in. If I didn't have this in me, I would have shut the fcuk up like I said and let someone else do it, rather than derailing the strongest revolutionary movement of the last 2 centuries.

It's time to face the facts and the facts are that the Iranian people were played - short and simple.

In total agreement with PJ and rasul.
Do you guys think RP would have half of the guts they have shown?
You get what you deserve based on your efforts. When they are in Iran and fight the system they will have more respect from people than those who have been out of Iran. I think Motazeri chenged we have changed they have changed too!
This is what tajzadeh said
تاج زاده: از خطاهای خود در دهه اول انقلاب پوزش می خواهم
راديو فردا : مصطفی تاج زاده، معاون سیاسی وزارت کشور دولت محمد خاتمی و عضو جبهه مشارکت و سازمان مجاهدین انقلاب اسلامی که در مرخصی زندان به سر می برد از «خطا»هایی که وی و نسل انقلاب به ویژه در دهه اول انقلاب، انجام داده اند، پوزش خواست

Saeed jaan, RP is at least an educated guy - not some con-artist child molastor who under the guise of religion is supporting the idea of a supreme human being on earth as the representative of God. Anyone who supports this idea in any shape or form is supporting a tyrannical, dictatorial, blood-sucking entity and deserves no respect or second thought.

Yes, people change and I appreciate seeing comments like that from people like Tajzadeh. But Mousavi, Karroubi and Khatami do NOT belong to this group. For the umteenth time, they have been adamanet about their dedication to this system of supreme jurispedence and the "revolutionary path". Before peopel can change, they first have to admit their mistakes like Tajzadeh did. But these guys have not. Why do you think they're still roaming the countryside eating yonjeh and mooing through some retarded statement once in a while? If they really posed a threat to the system, if they really had changed and wanted something more, they would have been in the group that was arrested in those early day and in jail with the rest of the real revolutionaries.

Please don't include these charalattans with "they" - the real people who were behind this movement and the cries of change. It's the least we can do to appreciate what they've done for our contry - acknowledging that they're being tortured in jail for us. It is an absolute insult to every person who has suffered under the IR and fought for a better life, to include the likes of Mousavi and Karroubi in their group.

Ba dorood:

ALL,
It is rather ironic when I present points against the likes of Mousavi (GHAATEL) and Karubi (Dozd), HIM Reza Pahlavi gets attacked!!!

Dard O Balai RP Bokhoreh Too Sar Harchi Akhoond O Akhoond-Namaa va Tarafdaaraaneshoon!!

HIM Reza Pahlavi is an educated man who offered his services as a fighter jet pilot during Iran-Iraq war. Yet, Direstraits makes such NAA AAGAAH comment about HIS Majesty’s bravery.

What Toilet hole were Kaubi and Mousavi hiding during Iran – Iraq war? Oh, yeah…Mousavi was busy with the mass executions and karubi was looking for GHAASHOGH BASTANI-KHORI service Kaakh Niaavaraan!!

It is rather sad yet revealing why Iranians can not shed off Islamic Rip-off......DUE TO NAA AAGAAHI!!!

Beh tab gereftan keh beh marg raazi konan!!! Migi na? Karubi Tab nist? Mousavi Tab nist?!!

I have to agree with oldman on this one. RP loved Iran much more then Mousavi & karroubi. You can not compare the things he did for his country compared to these guys. their heart still beats for palestine.

the fact is, all those who are dedicated Islamiq republic fans, their religon comes first, before their country.

Im sure that even they would be asked this question directly, they wouldnt hesitate to tell you that.

In total agreement with PJ and rasul.
Do you guys think RP would have half of the guts they have shown?


Where did that come from ? How is RP even related to these two guys ?

We all know about the past of these guys and most of us decided to forgive them, make a huge assumption that they mean well now and are doing these for Iran and Iranian people.

However, If I was pessimistic, I couldn't help think that they srated to feel the heat of the fire that themselves started, close to their home and wealth.

They knew that the Tornado of Islamic Hardliners will come after them, their friends sooner rather than later to steal and take away, all the wealth that they stole from Iranian people over the last 30 years.

So they decided to take the stand only to protect themselves, their families and their wealth.

But at the end, lets hope pessimist are wrong, lets hope that these guy's past does not mean anything and these guys are really genuine and are thinking about EQUALITY and JUSTICE for ALL IRANIAN and not just a certain groups.

Rasoul jaan, you were the one who was judging Mohamad a man who lived 1400 years ago with 20th century standards and accusing him of being a child molastor. Karroubi is actually a 20th century man, judged by that centuries standards to be a child moslator! He is certainly no more influencial than Mohamad's little finger. So what if he's influencial? When these religous chrlattans learn to keep their nose out of politics and Iranian affairs, like the Church of England does, or when they retreat to the simanries in Qom like the Popes in Vatican did, then we can let them be. For now, this is a war between Iran and Islamists - all of them.
MR, G.
I still do, not just big mo, majority of akhoonds and priests are child molesters, some Buddhist monks don't have such a clean track record either .

And I will be the last person to commend or promote an akhoond. I was just talking about Sane'i (not Karroubi), weather I like it or not he is an influential religious leader and from the dawn of islaminc revolution he has decided to be just that and stay away from politics. During this past 31 years he always voiced his fierce objection for what he felt was unjust, oppressive and inhumane. I personally have no reason to condemn him except his outfit and/or being an akhoond in general.

There are many others like him in our society with their own followers and they will not go away overnight. If we are serious about reducing and ultimately getting rid of their influence then we must concentrate on education of the masses.

Just a clarification in my part.

Not that I think Mousavi and Karoubi are leadership caliber, but I personally think they should be put on trial, fair and square with representation for what they have done in the past, if they get exonerated then I will forgive them as well. Until then they will remain in my black list.

I'm just talking about Sane'i whom should not be painted with the same broad brush which those 2 deserve.

During this past 31 years he always voiced his fierce objection for what he felt was unjust, oppressive and inhumane. I personally have no reason to condemn him except his outfit and/or being an akhoond in general.



Motori Jan
Do you know where did he stand when it came to mass execution of the political prisoners?

Did he raise any concerns about imprisonment of Bahais, their firing from their jobs and ...

Did he say anything about the mass executions of the late 50s and early 60s ?


I am just curious to know how was he when Imam was alive.

True dat Mr. A. The way I see that though is that people like him were enjoying all the benefits of the system for 30 years.
Sane'i never received a penny from barbaric republic.

The only time they've spoken up is when they thought they can grab power. Not exactly a noble act. He's definitely better than most of them (as is Karroubi) but it's all the same crap with different degrees of stinking. He considers people like us najes! ;)
Sane'i was against VelAyat faghih and mix of islam with politics from the start and he knew what the consequence of his stance will be. He rejected meeting request from Khar 2ice and ridiculed AN for the same request. Barbaric Republic even tried (actually they publicized) defrocking his "Marjaeiyatte".


As far as I know Karroubi's pretty loaded. I remember the BBC interview with him in his apartment and that was no oridinary apartment. His heavily into investments and just as a side note, his wife was only 14 when he married her at the of 26!!! :whistle:
I don't like akhoonds but comparing Sane'i to Karoubi is a bit unfair.

Motori Jan
Do you know where did he stand when it came to mass execution of the political prisoners?
Shahin jAn,
I have no fact to back up my claim at the present moment but I have heard from many people that it was actually Sane'i who informed Montazeri about prison massacre of 1366 and told him that he is a successor for the leader of a murderous regime.

Did he raise any concerns about imprisonment of Bahais, their firing from their jobs and ...
I don't know that but we can come up with our own conclusion.
First of all he is a Shia muslim religious leader and I don't know how much I should expect from him, but I would like to hazard a guess. We know he is a pro secular gov. and looking at his track record he probably is more just than the others. He might not openly recognize Bahaeism as a religion but I doubt it he would condone or approve their persecution, and/or murder.
OTOH how could he condone murders and/or persecutions of any one when he claims IRI justice system is unislamic?

Did he say anything about the mass executions of the late 50s and early 60s ?[/QUOTE]
50s? I don't know but after that he called every single execution and murder unjust and unislamic and every time he did it his house and his office got ransacked by the thugs, doors sealed and computers and files taken away. Sane'i is a record holder in that regard.



I am just curious to know how was he when Imam was alive.
Shahin jAn,
That is what makes Sane'i to stand alone among other mullas, Khomeini had been counting on his support because Sane'i was one of his students thus expected to act as a disciple, but he did not. Sane'i started opposing the concept of Islamic republic before even the return of Khomeini to Iran. He warned people about velayat vaghih, and AFAIK he accepted leadership of the guardian council hoping he can debunk velayat e vaghih, not being able to he resigned in 1983.
His views about following issues are just like yours and mine:
Velayat e vaghih
Separation of state and religion
Status of woman in the society
Nuclear issue
Last election
Forced confessions
Political prisoners
unjust judiciary system
Suicide bombing

HIM Reza Pahlavi is an educated man who offered his services as a fighter jet pilot during Iran-Iraq war.!!
Whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhat?
You watch too many movies. don't you? Did he just offer? Or did he do?

Saeed jaan, RP is at least an educated guy
.

Education is not enough. Khoemini didn't have education but was able to overthrow all those educated people.
Come on you understand what I mean. All I see from RP is an interview
in this or that tv station. What else can he help us with?

Whhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhat?
You watch too many movies. don't you? Did he just offer? Or did he do?
D.S jAn,
R.P did offer to return to Iran and serve as fighter pilot (he flew F-5 back then) but in return hezies scared him away by saying you won't fly fighter jet if you return to Iran, you'll be hanged from lamp post instead.

Back then (1980) Iranian media was not controlled and censored like today and the news was all over.

Education is not enough. Khoemini didn't have education but was able to overthrow all those educated people.
Come on you understand what I mean. All I see from RP is an interview
in this or that tv station. What else can he help us with?

Saeed jaan, RP has said many times that he's just another citizen like you and I. That's not the case with the likes of Mousavi, Karroubi or any other akhound. So, the question should not be what RP can help us with, but what we can help us (including RP) with.

Rasoul jaan, Sanei was a member of the Guardian council and he has been earning his comfortable living doing absolutely nothing, but to promote the same values that this system promotes - religous guidance or marjaiat. IMHO, sSaying that he hasn't taken a penny from the IR (regardless of that fact the he worked in the Guardian council) is like saying an independant sales-distributor for a company does not take money from the company because he is not on their payroll.

I totally agree with you that he has some following, but it doesn't mean that we should support him or accept what he stands for. This is some of his positions on various issues from Farsi Wiki (which has more info than the English one):

* او درباره ولایت فقیه گفته‌است: بر مبنای ولایت فقیه، هر مجتهدی که جامع شرایط باشد، منصوب برای ولایت است و نسبت به مردم، مشروعیت اجرا در مصالح عامّه ـ که اسلام حکم خاصّی نداردـ، منحصراً با مردم و نظـر اکثریت و توده آنان است و مشروعیّت، منوط به آرا و رضایت آنان به طور کلّی و یا از طریق اکثریت است و دستور اجرای آن به طور مستقیم یا غیرمستقیم، با ولی فقیه است.

* درباره بلوغ دختران، وی موثّقه عمّار ساباطی که شرط سنّی را سیزده سال قمری می‌داند، ترجیح داده، می‌افزاید: در صورت عدم احراز سایر علایم بلوغ که نصوص و فتاوا متعرّض آنهاست، دختران در این سن (سیزده سالگی) به تکلیف می‌رسند.

* او در مورد کفّار می‌گوید: اظهر طهارت آنان، همانند طهارت مسلمانان است. گرچه کفّار حربی که بر سرِ اسلام و اعتقاد مسلمانان با آنان می‌جنگند (نه به سبب جهات دیگر) و معاند دینی هستند (همانند اندکی از بقیّه کفّار که با یقین به حقّانیت اسلام، باز منکر آن هستند)، محکوم به نجاست‌اند.

At the end of the day, this is not a guy after secularism, equality and social values that don't jive with Islam and therefore a major obstacle or hurdle on our path to democracy and freedom. There's absolutely no reason IMHO to support additional hurdles on our way. The more hurdles that are removed by any means, the better for all of us.

*

D.S jAn,
R.P did offer to return to Iran and serve as fighter pilot (he flew F-5 back then) but in return hezies scared him away by saying you won't fly fighter jet if you return to Iran, you'll be hanged from lamp post instead.

Back then (1980) Iranian media was not controlled and censored like today and the news was all over.
And he couldn't predict they would say or do such a thing. Do you believe
he would move to Iran if they accepted the offer?

Saeed jaan, RP has said many times that he's just another citizen like you and I. That's not the case with the likes of Mousavi, Karroubi or any other akhound. So, the question should not be what RP can help us with, but what we can help us (including RP) with.

*
That concept is different from how monarchists represent RP. His majesty and so on. Some still expect him to be the king. Don't you know?

I do Saeed jaan and a Constitutional Monarchy within the framework of a parlimentary democracy (which is what all of them agree with) does not contradict my goals or vision for Iran. On the other hand, the mixing of religion and politics at any degree is in direct contrdiction with my goals. I do NOT support VF or an Islamic state and stand firmly against anyone who supports those ideas. I don't know why we Iranians try so hard to push the people that are on the same path with us off the road, while standing up for those who have pushed us off the road. It's a curious obcession for sure.

And he couldn't predict they would say or do such a thing. Do you believe
he would move to Iran if they accepted the offer?
Since it never happened, then we will never know. It was not a movie.;)

Rasoul jaan, Sanei was a member of the Guardian council
I already brought that fact to your attention.

and he has been earning his comfortable living doing absolutely nothing,*
Source please! other wise I will assume it is a personal assumption, and how would you know he has in fact a comfortable living. Copy of his tax return will do.:D

but to promote the same values that this system promotes - religous guidance or marjaiat.
Even the hardcore shia moozlamb knows "Marjaeyatt" is different than velAyat e vaghih. What is your suggestion Sir?


IMHO, sSaying that he hasn't taken a penny from the IR (regardless of that fact the he worked in the Guardian council) is like saying an independant sales-distributor for a company does not take money from the company because he is not on their payroll.
Irrelevant comparison. If Sane'i was a salesman he could've been SL by now.

Any other Example?


I totally agree with you that he has some following, but it doesn't mean that we should support him or accept what he stands for. This is some of his positions on various issues from Farsi Wiki (which has more info than the English one):
No one ever claimed we should support him or any other akhoond. I just said generalization and painting Sanei with the same broad brush which we use for other akhoond is not fair. How hard is that to agree upon?

* او درباره ولایت فقیه گفته‌است: بر مبنای ولایت فقیه، هر مجتهدی که جامع شرایط باشد، منصوب برای ولایت است و نسبت به مردم، مشروعیت اجرا در مصالح عامّه ـ که اسلام حکم خاصّی نداردـ، منحصراً با مردم و نظـر اکثریت و توده آنان است و مشروعیّت، منوط به آرا و رضایت آنان به طور کلّی و یا از طریق اکثریت است و دستور اجرای آن به طور مستقیم یا غیرمستقیم، با ولی فقیه است.

* درباره بلوغ دختران، وی موثّقه عمّار ساباطی که شرط سنّی را سیزده سال قمری می‌داند، ترجیح داده، می‌افزاید: در صورت عدم احراز سایر علایم بلوغ که نصوص و فتاوا متعرّض آنهاست، دختران در این سن (سیزده سالگی) به تکلیف می‌رسند.

* او در مورد کفّار می‌گوید: اظهر طهارت آنان، همانند طهارت مسلمانان است. گرچه کفّار حربی که بر سرِ اسلام و اعتقاد مسلمانان با آنان می‌جنگند (نه به سبب جهات دیگر) و معاند دینی هستند (همانند اندکی از بقیّه کفّار که با یقین به حقّانیت اسلام، باز منکر آن هستند)، محکوم به نجاست‌اند.
A swing and a miss again!
I already said he is a Shia muslim clergy, that is the context were we compare him to the others.

At the end of the day, this is not a guy after secularism,
Incorrect! He is and acts as a big advocate for separation of religion and state. That is secularism in my book.

equality and social values that don't jive with Islam and therefore a major obstacle or hurdle on our path to democracy and freedom.
The guy never promised equality and/or freedom. I'm comparing him with the rest of the individual in the hord. I said and will say it again, comparing Sane'i to Karoubi and and other akhoond is unfair. I never claimed he is Thomas Jefferson. NOW did I?

There's absolutely no reason IMHO to support additional hurdles on our way. The more hurdles that are removed by any means, the better for all of us.

Sir!
You might want to consider going back and reading my posts in this regard before coming up with such a metaphoric conclusion.
No 1 is supporting any 1.
As I mentioned in this thread (which I think you conveniently overlooked, or intentionaly try to fly over them) compairing Sane'i to Karoubi or any other akhoond among the system is unfair, now by doing so you personally concluded that I'm supporting him must be your own immagination. I have nothing to do with that.

..compairing Sane'i to Karoubi or any other akhoond among the system is unfair, now by doing so you personally concluded that I'm supporting him must be your own immagination. I have nothing to do with that.

LOL, Rasoul jan next thing you know we are going to find out that you read 3 verses of Gohran nightly before doing your last prayer and hitting the bed. :Notooth2:

J/K guys. :chekerim:

LOL, Rasoul jan next thing you know we are going to find out that you read 3 verses of Gohran nightly before doing your last prayer and hitting the bed. :Notooth2:

J/K guys. :chekerim:
R.T jAn,
I actually do, every single night too.
I have 2 joke books, one is George Carlin's "Brain Dropping" and the other is Quran written by "Mo the Ripper". But the latter always intertains me better, so I always read it before a good night sleep with a develish grin on my face.:Notooth2::UniKia:

"Gohran"??
LOOOL
Just noticed it and had to share the laughter.:D:D:D

Ba dorood:

Ther is one fact known about Mullahs (be it Karubi or any other) and Mullah-Namaa (be it shariaty or Mousavi), and that is their past 31 years record includes plunder and murder.

Karubi has filled his pocket to the rim.

Mousavi was Prime minister while executions were carried out.

These are facts about these people, now, it is up to you to AZMOON the AZMOODEH or not!!@!

I already brought that fact to your attention.
Source please! other wise I will assume it is a personal assumption, and how would you know he has in fact a comfortable living. Copy of his tax return will do.:D


Sorry, I must have missed that part about the Guardian Council Rasoul jaan. And no, I don't have access to his bank account info or tax returns, ;) but he sure doesn't look like he belongs to the 40%+ of the Iranian population below the poverty line. He looks pretty well fed and although that's not an Armani aba, it's not polyester - I can tell you that much.
:Weigh:


Even the hardcore shia moozlamb knows "Marjaeyatt" is different than velAyat e vaghih. What is your suggestion Sir?


I certainly didn't say they're the same Rasoul jaan. Is it okay if I believe that one (marjaeyyat) was the source of the other (VF) and have a problem with both?


Irrelevant comparison. If Sane'i was a salesman he could've been SL by now.
Any other Example?


I don't believe one is necessary Rasoul jaan. He has been writing books on Islamic laws and I'm sure the books aren't being handed out for free. He is a salesman selling a concept rather than a product. The fact that he doesn't want to be the president of the company whose idea he's salling, doesn't mean he's not benefiting from the idea. That's what I was trying to get across.


No one ever claimed we should support him or any other akhoond. I just said generalization and painting Sanei with the same broad brush which we use for other akhoond is not fair. How hard is that to agree upon?


At this point in time Rasoul jaan, it's a little hard for me to agree with that - a year ago maybe, but not anymore. Again, I am against the idea that all Akhounds promote and are selling. I find it to be a con and if anything you have argued that to death in other threads. If your suggestion is that we should respect some con artists and despise others, then I can agree with you, but you're arguing against what you have previously argued and very passionately may I add. :mf_seehearspeak:


A swing and a miss again!
I already said he is a Shia muslim clergy, that is the context were we compare him to the others.


Well, my opinion at this point is that there's no such thing as a good Shia muslim clergy. What every shia muslim clergy stands for is against the core of my beliefs. :meditate:


Incorrect! He is and acts as a big advocate for separation of religion and state. That is secularism in my book.


Then I'm missing something Rasoul jaan, because in the quote I posted he seems to be endorsing the concept of VF. :dunno:


The guy never promised equality and/or freedom. I'm comparing him with the rest of the individual in the hord. I said and will say it again, comparing Sane'i to Karoubi and and other akhoond is unfair. I never claimed he is Thomas Jefferson. NOW did I?


No you definitely didn't and I hope I didn't imply that you did, However, as I already said, I stand firmly against the concept they're all selling. I also did say that he's not as bad as others, but poopoo that doesn't smell as bad is still poopoo (paraphrasing what I said earlier).
:shithitsthefan:


Sir!
You might want to consider going back and reading my posts in this regard before coming up with such a metaphoric conclusion.
No 1 is supporting any 1.
As I mentioned in this thread (which I think you conveniently overlooked, or intentionaly try to fly over them) compairing Sane'i to Karoubi or any other akhoond among the system is unfair, now by doing so you personally concluded that I'm supporting him must be your own immagination. I have nothing to do with that.

That was definitely my bad in expressing myself Mr. A. I was in no way suggesting that you support him or that you are saying we should support him - I thought that would be pretty obvious at this point. I was simply expressing my reasons for not supporting him (personally) as well as reasons why I won't get bent out of shape if anything bad is happening to any of these guys. They're burning in the hell they themselves created - a bit of sweet poetic irony if you will and the higher the flames of this burning hell, the more hellish it will become for the rest of them.

Good entertinament for us on the sidelines munching on our popcorn! ;) BTW, I really like these discussions where we both make 180's and you argue what I normally argue and vice versa. I had been dying to get out my frustrations with child molators since our last discussion.

:looti:

Behrou jan. it is not clear to me whether you think Mousavi and Karoubi are with the regime and what they are doing is part of a bigger plan or you think they are genuinely after change (not a revolution, but still change). I think they are not after revolution and they have never been after it. Even last year I didn't think they were after revolution and I think a lot of people know that. I don't directly support them, but I


That's not true at all Pedram jaan. Many people in Iran flourished under Rafi and Khatami and it was only when AN came in that he put a stop to the top hunchos and started cutting their source(s) of income or should I say baytol-maal. It's true that Iranians flourished in general, but these guys (the top hunchos) stole enough from Iran, so much so, that the surge of uneducated but highly loaded Iranians migrating to the West increased dramatically before the end of Khatami's presidency.


People were much happier during Khatami's first presidency. Since AN has come on, they have dried up all sources of income for everyone (including the people) except IRGC. At least the previous party would let the people have some of the money and freedom. I don't know any government in the world that doesn't steal from beytolmal as you say it. The ways maybe different but everyone in power thinks about their own pocket to some extent. And by the way even when Khatami was the head of government Khamenei was still the head nacho and his people were stealing the most.
In any case every party in the world is after defending its power, no?


Well, the first step of people like these going to court is the admission that they may be criminals and to stop following them. This is the very first step of a VERY long journey which will eventually lead to the possibility that we'd be in a position to prosecute members of the IR.

When and if we get to that point, if you make a line of every person who has committed a crime in this regime they are far from the top of the list.
We should not lose our perspective on who has done what.


The opposition was derailed by these two guys last year Pedram jaan and whatever remained of it, was derailed before the Bahman demonstration. These guys are NOT the opposition. They're simply the illusion of balance in a very complex political system.

The opposition was not derailed by these two. The opposition was first excited by these two in the first place. If it wasn't for them people would not have been in the street in the first place. Then they mismanaged it, which is not that surprising considering how much terror, deception and force this regime poured on the people.


So what? First of all, other than two five minute appearances through dozens of protests and demonstrations, Mousavi never took part in any - neither did his wife, nor Karroubi. Secondly, what does the fact the he lost his nephew have to do with anything? I lost my uncle and my cousin and half a dozen other close family members (aunts and cousins) spent time in IR jails at the beginning of the revolution. That doesn't mean anything in terms of who I am and what I stand for.

That was to indicate that if they were part of Khamenei's gang and purposefully were trying to bring the opposition out to get them burned, why would they give casualty from their own family? The fact that your family lost members is one sign that your family is not hand in hand with the current regime, no?


That was certainly not my reason as I have clarified here Pedram jaan. Having said that, these guys were NEVER after a revolution. Quite the contrary, they have done everything to insure that a revolution does not take place - only enough change so that they, their buddies and their proxies regain power.

Let's not forget that they were part of the regime who took over after the revolution. What did you expect them to do? And I still believe if they get rid of the supreme nacho and enforce the constitution most of the problems will go away.


Absolutely. The power and money has been slipping away from the "reformists" for years under AN. The situation had gotten gradually worse. You have to realize that Mousavi does not represent himslef. He represents an ideology and a certain group - he was their representative to get this power and money back - that's all.

Do you blame him? As part of a party he is trying to get the power they once had back. Wouldn't any member of any party supposed to do that? Don't they do the same in the US?


What I would have done Pedram jaan, in those early days after the election was to shut the fcuk up and let people do their thing, rather than laying claim to their struggle, and telling them to go home and shout Allah-o-Akbar from their rooftops instead, while they wait for me to reform the system. What I would have done was reach to the real people who have been suffering under the IR - the labourers who had not been paid for months before the election, those people who were forced to leave Iran under the IR, the ethnic and religous minorities, etc. You can rest assured that I wouldn't have been pushing all these people away, saying we have it under control and this is out movement.

And if you shut the f up and the movement didn't go anywhere and people criticized you why you didn't say something, then is it right for the people to label you as traitor or after your pocket?
Each one of us had a strategy in mind back then. In hindsight what they did didn't go anywhere. It is true the fact that they were not after a revolution contributed to the bad strategies. But I don't think anyone expected that they were after revolution.


Had this been an oversight on my part, I would have been trying to fix it by now. Rest assured my good man that I would not have been sitting on my ass and just meeting with my buddies, releasing pointless statement after statement. I would have been either in jail, killed or out of the country fighting for the cause that I believe in. If I didn't have this in me, I would have shut the fcuk up like I said and let someone else do it, rather than derailing the strongest revolutionary movement of the last 2 centuries.

Like who? Do you know anyone who is doing it? I think he is going to shut up soon one way or another.


It's time to face the facts and the facts are that the Iranian people were played - short and simple.
Behrou jan, I know until the real change there is going to be struggles like this. Nobody likes it, but that is the way it is until a true leader is found.

I do Saeed jaan and a Constitutional Monarchy within the framework of a parlimentary democracy (which is what all of them agree with) does not contradict my goals or vision for Iran. On the other hand, the mixing of religion and politics at any degree is in direct contrdiction with my goals. I do NOT support VF or an Islamic state and stand firmly against anyone who supports those ideas. I don't know why we Iranians try so hard to push the people that are on the same path with us off the road, while standing up for those who have pushed us off the road. It's a curious obcession for sure.

Behrou jan,
You may like CM, but at the end of the day, how it is implemented will show whether it is a good thing for our people or not. There is still a bad taste in people's mouths about monarchy. I would be shocked if more than 5% of people of Iran go for monarchy, and specially RP.
Let's not forget that we had a revolution 30 years ago and people toppled MRP. It is like we have a revolution today and someone comes in power and then 30 years from now people vote for Mojtaba Khamenei to be their supreme nacho.
But again RP is a possibility and no one can dismiss him. The tough road ahead will show if he has the pedigree of becoming the leader of the opposition.

Az shokhi gozashte
آخرین خبرها از وضعیت آیت الله صانعی
روز گذشته حضرت آیت الله العظمی صانعی به دنبال بروز عارضه قلبی در یکی از بیمارستان‌های تهران بستری شد.

به گزارش «پارلمان‌نیوز»، پایگاه اطلاع رسانی دفتر حضرت آیت الله العظمی صانعی با تائید این خبر اعلام کرد:«به دنبال مراجعات حضوری و تماس های مکرر هموطنان عزیز از اقصی نقاط ایران و سایر کشورها و ابراز نگرانی این عزیزان از بستری شدن حضرت آیت الله العظمی صانعی به دلیل عارضه قلبی به اطلاع مقلدان و علاقمندان فهیم و قدرشناس معظم له می رساند که حال عمومی معظم له رضایت بخش و رو به بهبودی است.»

بر اساس این گزارش این مرجع تقلید صبح امروز و پس از انجام معاینات لازم و کسب بهبودی نسبی و با رضایت و نظر پزشکان معالج از بیمارستان مرخص شد.




I guess he will be killed soon or later by mofia.

Ba dorood:

Saanei getting killed is a possibility.

This regime came about through an Islamic Revolution which FOOLED people.

It was soon after the Islamic Revolution that popular way of referring to Late Shahnshaah Aaryaamehr was "OON KHODAA BIAAMORZ" for public realized the mistake.

What were the mistake?

Well, When Mullah KhomAni (supported by leftist Iranian, more like KHORDEH-ELM of the era and bunch of idiots) said, he was unhappy for not killing more!!

Yes, killing was the driving engine of this regime through the so-called "revolution".

I always call it Islamic Revolution or AASHOOB, six or half dozen.

Killing in this regime, is just another form of control and holding on to the power.

They will kill ANYONE. Didn't Mullah KhomAnni indirectly kill Afatollaah Shariatmadaari?

Didn't Ahmad Geryaan, Mullah's son, get killed (rumor has it) by the same HAM-PAALOONISH?

One becomes a Mullah for it is the easiest job in the world. It is very much the same in all of the religions. People of “cloth” are nothing but MOFTKHOR.

So, if they kill each other, I have no problem!!

I do not wish for anyone to be killed even the lowest criminals and Mullahs but if a Mullah regime kills a Mullah, I will not shed a tear.

I will not shed a tear either. But what worries me is ballance. Who do we
have on this side who don't we have!

Ba dorood:

Having a Mullah on People's side is always short lived.

Mullahs have always been portrayed as FOX.

Can anyone trust a Fox.

Assuming that any part of this regime is on people's side is just wrong.

AZMOODEH RAA AZMOODAN KHATAAST.

Late Shah thought that he had Mullahs on his side which he did but what took place is a clear indication of this breed of being.
The two Mullahs who ruled to execute late Dr. Farokhroo Parsa were both working with her reviewing school text books.

Again, trusting any mullah is just WRONG and always has cost people!!

Enough is enough. This breed is only after their own SHKAM and what is under it.

Mullahs sell their own mothers when they need to.

Shahin jAn,
I have no fact to back up my claim at the present moment but I have heard from many people that it was actually Sane'i who informed Montazeri about prison massacre of 1366 and told him that he is a successor for the leader of a murderous regime.




Thank you Motori Aziz
I admit that I am not familiar with Ayatollah Sanai's work in the past at all. I am not going to be quick in judging and think he is the different from the rest.

I think I am going to do some digging around and see what was his stands to the crimes of the late 50s and 60s in Iran and then see if he is truly different.

Sorry, I must have missed that part about the Guardian Council Rasoul jaan. And no, I don't have access to his bank account info or tax returns, ;) but he sure doesn't look like he belongs to the 40%+ of the Iranian population below the poverty line. He looks pretty well fed and although that's not an Armani aba, it's not polyester - I can tell you that much.
:Weigh:



I certainly didn't say they're the same Rasoul jaan. Is it okay if I believe that one (marjaeyyat) was the source of the other (VF) and have a problem with both?



I don't believe one is necessary Rasoul jaan. He has been writing books on Islamic laws and I'm sure the books aren't being handed out for free. He is a salesman selling a concept rather than a product. The fact that he doesn't want to be the president of the company whose idea he's salling, doesn't mean he's not benefiting from the idea. That's what I was trying to get across.



At this point in time Rasoul jaan, it's a little hard for me to agree with that - a year ago maybe, but not anymore. Again, I am against the idea that all Akhounds promote and are selling. I find it to be a con and if anything you have argued that to death in other threads. If your suggestion is that we should respect some con artists and despise others, then I can agree with you, but you're arguing against what you have previously argued and very passionately may I add. :mf_seehearspeak:



Well, my opinion at this point is that there's no such thing as a good Shia muslim clergy. What every shia muslim clergy stands for is against the core of my beliefs. :meditate:



Then I'm missing something Rasoul jaan, because in the quote I posted he seems to be endorsing the concept of VF. :dunno:



No you definitely didn't and I hope I didn't imply that you did, However, as I already said, I stand firmly against the concept they're all selling. I also did say that he's not as bad as others, but poopoo that doesn't smell as bad is still poopoo (paraphrasing what I said earlier).
:shithitsthefan:



That was definitely my bad in expressing myself Mr. A. I was in no way suggesting that you support him or that you are saying we should support him - I thought that would be pretty obvious at this point. I was simply expressing my reasons for not supporting him (personally) as well as reasons why I won't get bent out of shape if anything bad is happening to any of these guys. They're burning in the hell they themselves created - a bit of sweet poetic irony if you will and the higher the flames of this burning hell, the more hellish it will become for the rest of them.

Good entertinament for us on the sidelines munching on our popcorn! ;) BTW, I really like these discussions where we both make 180's and you argue what I normally argue and vice versa. I had been dying to get out my frustrations with child molators since our last discussion.

:looti:
Mr, G.
I guess we both wish for an akhoond free Iran, but remember, If you don't get know your enemy the chances are you will fail to defeat it.

Behrou jan. it is not clear to me whether you think Mousavi and Karoubi are with the regime and what they are doing is part of a bigger plan or you think they are genuinely after change (not a revolution, but still change). I think they are not after revolution and they have never been after it. Even last year I didn't think they were after revolution and I think a lot of people know that. I don't directly support them, but I


Mr. Ped, every indication that we've had from Mousavi and Karroubi is that their genuine about change. However, the change they (and their proxies) seek is jut enough to put them in power within the framework of the Islamic Republic. That framework is no longer acceptable to me and many many Iranians, even though it may have been last year. That change is further support for this same regime and structure, like Khatami's time was.


People were much happier during Khatami's first presidency. Since AN has come on, they have dried up all sources of income for everyone (including the people) except IRGC. At least the previous party would let the people have some of the money and freedom. I don't know any government in the world that doesn't steal from beytolmal as you say it. The ways maybe different but everyone in power thinks about their own pocket to some extent. And by the way even when Khatami was the head of government Khamenei was still the head nacho and his people were stealing the most.
In any case every party in the world is after defending its power, no?


Absolutely. Seeking power within a democratic framework is one thins and using guns and goons in a dictatoral environment is another. I fully support the former and firmly stand against the latter - as does every fredoom loving person in the world.


When and if we get to that point, if you make a line of every person who has committed a crime in this regime they are far from the top of the list.
We should not lose our perspective on who has done what.


I'm not at all concerned about making a line out these of people and punishing them for their crimes Pedram jaan. My concern, and every other Iranian IMHO at this point in time, to be following the person, group or people whose goals most closely match our vision. Anything beyond that is getting ahead of ourselves.


The opposition was not derailed by these two. The opposition was first excited by these two in the first place. If it wasn't for them people would not have been in the street in the first place. Then they mismanaged it, which is not that surprising considering how much terror, deception and force this regime poured on the people.


That's not at all correct Pedram jaan. I have previously sited multiple references that the opposition to this regime existed prior to the elections - the situation was already explosive, the people poured onto the streets before Mousavi said anything and the only reason they left the streets was Mousavi's calls for them to go back to their homes and shout Allah-o-Akbar instead. They stole the opposition and derailed it.


That was to indicate that if they were part of Khamenei's gang and purposefully were trying to bring the opposition out to get them burned, why would they give casualty from their own family? The fact that your family lost members is one sign that your family is not hand in hand with the current regime, no?


Pedram jaan, you make it sound like they offered members of their family as a sacrifice. That's not what happened. Many people have been killed including Ruholamini's son - a concervative. There have been heavy divisions in families since the beginning of the IR. There are 100's of thousand of Iranians who've lost family members to this regime. Until last year, the inner circle of the regime was not a part of it. Now it is. That doesn't mean we should start jumping up and down in joy and make heroes out of zeros.


Let's not forget that they were part of the regime who took over after the revolution. What did you expect them to do? And I still believe if they get rid of the supreme nacho and enforce the constitution most of the problems will go away.


That's putting the cart before the horse. The SN is here to stay and it won't be the likes of Mousavi, Karroubi and Khatami who openly support the idea of SN getting rid of him. That's overly wishful thinking IMHO.


Do you blame him? As part of a party he is trying to get the power they once had back. Wouldn't any member of any party supposed to do that? Don't they do the same in the US?


I don't blame them. They're just cowards I don't support. That's well within my democratic rights.


And if you shut the f up and the movement didn't go anywhere and people criticized you why you didn't say something, then is it right for the people to label you as traitor or after your pocket?


I didn't label them traitors and this isn't a question of right or wrong. It's a question of RIGHTS. It is the right of every Iranian to criticize, speak against and stand againt anyone in the political scene. No one shall be immune from that. That's the definition of democracy.


Each one of us had a strategy in mind back then. In hindsight what they did didn't go anywhere. It is true the fact that they were not after a revolution contributed to the bad strategies. But I don't think anyone expected that they were after revolution.


Fair enough and I did support that strategy. Now that it didn't go anywhere, I support other strategies. That's how you get ahead, not by sticking with the same system and strategy that doesn't work, which is unfortunately an Iranian thing and it even comes through in our football.


Like who? Do you know anyone who is doing it? I think he is going to shut up soon one way or another.

Behrou jan, I know until the real change there is going to be struggles like this. Nobody likes it, but that is the way it is until a true leader is found.


Like the people for starters. Like other opposition parties and ideas. This is about forming coalitions not exluding everyone who doesn't have that exact end goal in mind, which is exactly what these people have been doing. The true leaders are the people and Mousavi and Karroubi and all reformist supporters have simply been talking at them, not to them. Going forward, I'm going to support those people that are dynamic and their platform takes into account the demands of the people, rather than those who expect the demands of the people to fit into their platform.


Behrou jan,
You may like CM, but at the end of the day, how it is implemented will show whether it is a good thing for our people or not. There is still a bad taste in people's mouths about monarchy. I would be shocked if more than 5% of people of Iran go for monarchy, and specially RP.
Let's not forget that we had a revolution 30 years ago and people toppled MRP. It is like we have a revolution today and someone comes in power and then 30 years from now people vote for Mojtaba Khamenei to be their supreme nacho.
But again RP is a possibility and no one can dismiss him. The tough road ahead will show if he has the pedigree of becoming the leader of the opposition.


I don't like CM Pedram jaan, but as I have said many times CM within a democratic framework does not oppose the idea of freedom and democracy and my vision for Iran. There's a bad taste in people's mouths about dictatorship which continues to this day. The Shah was a dictator. The Queen of England and many other countries is also a monarch. Monarchy is not in opposition to democracy. Dictatorship is. Therefore I opposed the latter (be it in the form of monarchy or Islamism) and support the former (be in in the form of a parliamentary democracy, direct democracy or any other type of democaracy).

Mr, G.
I guess we both wish for an akhoond free Iran, but remember, If you don't get know your enemy the chances are you will fail to defeat it.

Fair enough Mr. A. I've been watching them and still learning. But I also remember (always) what a wise man (not to mention any name ;)) once told me on this forum and that is "not to interfere with your enemy when they're making mistakes". :drinking47:

Mr. Ped, every indication that we've had from Mousavi and Karroubi is that their genuine about change. However, the change they (and their proxies) seek is jut enough to put them in power within the framework of the Islamic Republic. That framework is no longer acceptable to me and many many Iranians, even though it may have been last year. That change is further support for this same regime and structure, like Khatami's time was.



Absolutely. Seeking power within a democratic framework is one thins and using guns and goons in a dictatoral environment is another. I fully support the former and firmly stand against the latter - as does every fredoom loving person in the world.



I'm not at all concerned about making a line out these of people and punishing them for their crimes Pedram jaan. My concern, and every other Iranian IMHO at this point in time, to be following the person, group or people whose goals most closely match our vision. Anything beyond that is getting ahead of ourselves.



That's not at all correct Pedram jaan. I have previously sited multiple references that the opposition to this regime existed prior to the elections - the situation was already explosive, the people poured onto the streets before Mousavi said anything and the only reason they left the streets was Mousavi's calls for them to go back to their homes and shout Allah-o-Akbar instead. They stole the opposition and derailed it.



Pedram jaan, you make it sound like they offered members of their family as a sacrifice. That's not what happened. Many people have been killed including Ruholamini's son - a concervative. There have been heavy divisions in families since the beginning of the IR. There are 100's of thousand of Iranians who've lost family members to this regime. Until last year, the inner circle of the regime was not a part of it. Now it is. That doesn't mean we should start jumping up and down in joy and make heroes out of zeros.



That's putting the cart before the horse. The SN is here to stay and it won't be the likes of Mousavi, Karroubi and Khatami who openly support the idea of SN getting rid of him. That's overly wishful thinking IMHO.



I don't blame them. They're just cowards I don't support. That's well within my democratic rights.



I didn't label them traitors and this isn't a question of right or wrong. It's a question of RIGHTS. It is the right of every Iranian to criticize, speak against and stand againt anyone in the political scene. No one shall be immune from that. That's the definition of democracy.



Fair enough and I did support that strategy. Now that it didn't go anywhere, I support other strategies. That's how you get ahead, not by sticking with the same system and strategy that doesn't work, which is unfortunately an Iranian thing and it even comes through in our football.



Like the people for starters. Like other opposition parties and ideas. This is about forming coalitions not exluding everyone who doesn't have that exact end goal in mind, which is exactly what these people have been doing. The true leaders are the people and Mousavi and Karroubi and all reformist supporters have simply been talking at them, not to them. Going forward, I'm going to support those people that are dynamic and their platform takes into account the demands of the people, rather than those who expect the demands of the people to fit into their platform.



I don't like CM Pedram jaan, but as I have said many times CM within a democratic framework does not oppose the idea of freedom and democracy and my vision for Iran. There's a bad taste in people's mouths about dictatorship which continues to this day. The Shah was a dictator. The Queen of England and many other countries is also a monarch. Monarchy is not in opposition to democracy. Dictatorship is. Therefore I opposed the latter (be it in the form of monarchy or Islamism) and support the former (be in in the form of a parliamentary democracy, direct democracy or any other type of democaracy).

I concur with most points you said here. My only issue and the reason I butted in was that you said Mousavi and Karoubi are only after their own pocket. I didn't think that was the case. But undoubtedly there are big questions about how far they can take us given the fact that they are still trying to do it in the framework of IRI.
I am not asking you to support them and I think they have lost a lot of their support base in Iran as well.
This was another one of those steps that had to be taken to make sure that every effort for the change within this system is doomed as long as the head nacho is there.
And still remains to be seen who is going to step up to become the next leader, since both of these guys failed miserably. I'm not sure if any time soon we can figure out whether they failed because they are cowards or because they still support the current system, but that is irrelevant at this point. Once they lost they lost. They become someone like Khatami after his first term. They will never get back the stature they once had.

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In-war has already been started and i don't mind sharing the popcorn with Mr, G. Double squirt of butter on mine please.:D:D